Wisconsin Talgos Disposition - MI and now Pacific Surfliner

Since a lot of the route is controlled by Amtrak or the State of Michigan, it might be easier to change speed limits on curves than on a line where a freight railroad might be able to withhold permission. And some of the trains that we aren't allowed to mention ran here in the 1970s.

Vincent wrote:The trainsets are brand new and the maintenance requirements should be minimal. With only 2 trainsets to maintain and Michigan footing the bills, I would expect some sort of temporary maintenance facility will be built in either Pontiac or Detroit if the trainsets are sold. In 2018, Michigan could recoup some of their investment by selling the trainsets to WA (hopefully to cover the Seattle to Spokane route!).

why would they want to sell the sets? in 2018 MI will still be a higher speed railroad than WA will it not? what sort of trip time impact is there from tilt?

Mod note: Lest we confuse newer members, it's important to clarify Jim's comments about the "trains we're not allowed to mention". Discussion of the turbo trains is just fine provided it's historical questions IE: where did they run, how were they painted, what was capacity, etc... What isn't allowed is monday morning quarterbacking the final rebuild, the NYS-Amtrak dispute, and the return to service. It's not allowed because some of us couldn't leave well enough alone and it wrecked some otherwise good discussions. Please respect that rule and enjoy the boards.

It would be nice to see them operating at triple digit speeds, as nature intended! Beats sending 'em to Bear, DE to waste away in perpetuity.

Why would they send them to Bear, Amtrak don't own them .

Insert hidden rail storage facility of your choice then. Where are they now?

Matt Johnson wrote:Insert hidden rail storage facility of your choice then. Where are they now?

And, of course, there's the reason we can't have nice conversations around here.

Vincent wrote:The trainsets are brand new and the maintenance requirements should be minimal. With only 2 trainsets to maintain and Michigan footing the bills, I would expect some sort of temporary maintenance facility will be built in either Pontiac or Detroit if the trainsets are sold. In 2018, Michigan could recoup some of their investment by selling the trainsets to WA (hopefully to cover the Seattle to Spokane route!).

It should be noted that Michigan DOT is not looking to buy the Talgos or equivalent trainsets. Here is the core RFP (21 page PDF). MI DOT is looking for trainsets or coach cars to lease to replace the Horizons through the end of 2017. By then, all of the Nippon-Sharyo corridor bi-level should be delivered and the bi-levels will go into full time service on the Wolverine service. Then the leased equipment would be released. MI DOT is looking to do this quickly, they are asking for equipment that can be in revenue service by September, 2014.

MI DOT has a number of requirements that make it an interesting question of who the heck else might be able to provide suitable passenger rail cars. To wit:

"Cars offered in response to this RFP must hold existing qualification to operate at 110 mph in accordance with FRA regulations, or be capable of achieving such qualification in accordance with Section IV - Anticipated Project Schedule".

"The passenger cars offered must be suitable for intercity service, in ready-to-operate condition, and available for inspection by MDOT. Cars shall have been built new or subject to thorough interior refurbishment and mechanical overhaul within the last five years. All carborne systems shall be in good working order and “in date” with respect to periodic maintenance and testing requirements.

Passenger cars shall be provided in the form of complete train consists equipped for push-pull operation. Each consist shall include business class, coach, and café features. The minimum size consist shall provide 280 revenue coach seats and 30 revenue business class seats, plus 24 non-revenue café seats (i.e., total revenue capacity of 310 and equivalent to the current revenue capacity of a typical “Wolverine” consist). The desired nominal capacity of each train consist is 350-400 passengers, with an approximate 90 percent/10 percent split between coach class and business class seating."

There is no business class seating on the WI Talgos. But that could be fixed I expect. But the WI Talgos don't have a cafe car either.

The requirements cover both conventional passenger cars and integral trainsets. For trainsets, requirements include:

"ADA compliant;
o Equipped with restroom accommodations;
o Each train equipped with one café car;
o Amtrak certified;
o Equipped for push-pull service in conformance with Amtrak standards;
o Equipped with HEP trainlines and communication trainlines in conformance with Amtrak standards (unless HEP is supplied by a separate power car); and ..."

MI DOT is looking to negotiate the contract in May, so if the WI Talgos are headed for a 3 year service stint in MI, we may know in the next month.

Perhaps they are looking to buy the horizons used on the route off Amtrak?

I guess the ex-Santa Fe hi-levels are out too then, as I don't think they'd be ready to roll as is.

Couldn't the soon to be retired single level Nippon Sharyo MARC coaches qualify. It shouldn't be difficult to change a few into business class simply by replacing the seats, nor convert some into a cafe configuration. While approaching end-of-life, they are certified for 110 mph and Amtrak often uses them for Holiday specials. My only worry would be restrooms aboard. Except for the lack of the pantographs, they look very similar to the single level South Shore Line EMUs. They wouldn't look out of place in Indiana.y

There is no business class seating on the WI Talgos. But that could be fixed I expect. But the WI Talgos don't have a cafe car either.

Business Class is an easy fix and WI did order Bistro cars for their trainsets. (The car with the high windows is a Bistro.)

electricron wrote:Couldn't the soon to be retired single level Nippon Sharyo MARC coaches qualify.

Could be. In my mind, the most pertinent evidence is the Harnish quote. Not only is he in a position to know whether anything else might be available, he's also likely to be on regular speaking terms with the people issuing the RFP. For me, that clinches it. Even if there's something else theoretically available, he has spoken to Michigan DOT and knows what they're looking for. If Michigan is a hand, the Talgos are going to be at the webbing between thumb and pointer.

The MARC cars come to mind as the only sizeable fleet out there certified for 110. Here's the problem - we know they have commuter seating. If it's anything like their cousins on the South Shore, it's freaking rotten. A Chicago-South Bend ride is punishment in those seats. I can't imagine a Chicago-Detroit run.

And what's wrong with the Horizon cars in service now? Michigan would have to put a pile of money into any cars for ~4 years usage. Am I missing something?

so could the leased sets run the route in less time than the new bilevels?