Wisconsin Talgos Disposition - MI and now Pacific Surfliner

What about Portland-Spokane? Is there any capacity on that route for an expansion of the Cascades? I'll admit I have no idea if the Portland section of the Empire Builder performs well enough to warrant additional service.

Dreezy wrote:What about Portland-Spokane? Is there any capacity on that route for an expansion of the Cascades? I'll admit I have no idea if the Portland section of the Empire Builder performs well enough to warrant additional service.

Let's review the relative populations of the various Pacific Northwest cities (MSAs)
Vancouver B.C. 2,463,700 (If in US would rank 24th above Portland)
Seattle 3,552,157 (US: 15th)
Portland 2,314,554 (US: 24th)
Eugene 351,715 (US: 146th)
Salem 390,738 (US: 131st)
Spokane 532,253 (US: 100th)

I'm going to suggest a MSA of 500,000 isn't enough population to support multiple trains per day. Of course, Eugene and Salem aren't that big individually, but together they are. But then we must take into account distance;
Portland to Eugene is 110 miles, Seattle to Spokane is 280 miles, Portland to Spokane is 350 miles.
That's a significant difference in distance, and the resultant elapse time.

Actually WSDOT in the past said if they expand Cascades service to other NW cities, they would like to have uniform equipment across the brand.

AgentSkelly wrote:Actually WSDOT in the past said if they expand Cascades service to other NW cities, they would like to have uniform equipment across the brand.

IF! Has WDOT even studied regional trains towards Spokane?

pittsburgh to hoboken

When the bilevels are delivered to the Midwest states no one will care where or what happened to these orphan Talgos. Its the wrong equipment for the Milwaukee-CHI route.

Suburban Station wrote:pittsburgh to hoboken

With no stops in between.

electricron wrote:

AgentSkelly wrote:Actually WSDOT in the past said if they expand Cascades service to other NW cities, they would like to have uniform equipment across the brand.

IF! Has WDOT even studied regional trains towards Spokane?

Once the improvements have been made on the Portland-Seattle-Vancouver service, WSDOT wants to look at trains to Spokane; there is speculation they want to restore the NP route.

AgentSkelly wrote:

electricron wrote:

AgentSkelly wrote:Actually WSDOT in the past said if they expand Cascades service to other NW cities, they would like to have uniform equipment across the brand.

IF! Has WDOT even studied regional trains towards Spokane?

Once the improvements have been made on the Portland-Seattle-Vancouver service, WSDOT wants to look at trains to Spokane; there is speculation they want to restore the NP route.

The NP route runs north to the east of Lake Washington, then west along its north shore. some might think the better rail corridor is the ex-Milwaukee Road that leads into Tacoma slightly south - but the State owns this corridor today with the Iron Horse Trail running in it.

Great Northern's 7.9 mile long Cascade Tunnel has an elevation of 2,881 feet. Its eastbound grade is 1.7%, its westbound grade is 2.2%. The peak is at the east portal. BNSF and Amtrak use it today

Northern Pacific's 2 mile long Stampede Pass Tunnel had an elevation of approximately 1,634 feet, Both its eastbound and westbound grade are 2.2%, with the peak inside the tunnel. It's the first one built, it still has low clearances and can't run double stack containers or auto racks.

Milwaukee Road's 2 mile long Snoqualmie Tunnel had an elevation of 2,520 feet. Its eastbound grade 1.74%, its westbound grade 0.7%. The tunnel is level, and its floor has already been lowered so it can accommodate auto racks cars, and also double stack containers.

Woe, BNSF kept the wrong spare tunnel, or did it? Should lower elevation or lower grades rank higher?

So one tunnel is abandoned ?
From what I can see on Google earth, there is not a huge distance advantage to any route. Picking up Yakima and the Tri Cities would be a bonus. Which of the 3 routes mentioned does that ?

David Benton wrote:So one tunnel is abandoned ?
From what I can see on Google earth, there is not a huge distance advantage to any route. Picking up Yakima and the Tri Cities would be a bonus. Which of the 3 routes mentioned does that ?

Both the old Northern Pacific and Milwaukee Road routed through Ellensburg, only the NP went southwards to Yakima. The NP still has tracks on its roadbed, the MR doesn't. The Iron Horse Trail and/or John Wayne Pioneer Trail is 300 miles in length, from Rattlesnake Lake to Idaho and is the only east-west cross-state trail. It uses the old MR rail corridor.

Starting a daylight service between Seattle and Spokane isn't going to happen in the near future. WSDOT is still managing the ARRA projects and getting ready for the SEA<>PDX service expansion set for 2017. But another train between Seattle and Spokane--one that operates reliably and during daylight hours--could be popular. The fastest route between Seattle and Spokane would be via the current route that the Empire Builder follows (the ex-GN). But the tunnel over Stevens Pass is at capacity and BNSF would likely require some costly upgrades to allow 2 more daily passenger trains through the tunnel. The ex-NP route over Stampede Pass would be slower for SEA<>SPK passengers and require about $200 million in infrastructure improvements to be viable for passenger rail (according to the North Coast Hiawatha study). But the ex-NP route would offer service to the Tri-Cities, Yakima and Ellensburg which have a far greater population base than Wenatchee and Ephrata. Because another train would have to be taxpayer supported, any expansion plan would be very political and it's hard to guess which way the trains would run.

frequentflyer wrote:When the bilevels are delivered to the Midwest states no one will care where or what happened to these orphan Talgos. Its the wrong equipment for the Milwaukee-CHI route.

it's the right equipment for the alleghenies

From Holiday Inn Express Lexington NE The Milwaukee Journal Sentinel has reported on a new development which I personally hope goes nowhere:

http://www.jsonline.com/news/milwaukee/ ... 01661.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Brief passage:

• Two brand new, high-speed passenger trains idling in a north side Milwaukee building that originally were manufactured for the state of Wisconsin by Spanish train-maker Talgo Inc. may soon be put to use.
  
  Michigan's Department of Transportation issued a request for proposals in March for ready-to-operate trains capable of 110 mph speeds for its Wolverine service between Chicago and Detroit for August delivery. While neither the agency nor Talgo would confirm the train-maker submitted a proposal, there aren't many companies with fully built trains sitting around.
  
  "The only modern trains available today within that short time frame are the Talgos," said Rick Harnish, executive director of the Chicago-based Midwest High Speed Rail Association.
  
  Harnish applauded Michigan's move to acquire modern trains — many of the Amtrak-owned trains operating in the Midwest are aging and have problems when there's deep snow. He called the Talgo trains "excellent" and said they would be a particularly good fit for the curvy Wolverine route because their light weight and low-slung design would allow them to navigate turns more quickly.
  
  There could be hiccups involved in a sale. The trains are the subject of a lawsuit about who owns the trains. Even if Wisconsin can't stop Talgo from selling the trains, the unfinished litigation could make them less attractive to a buyer

I would guess that the somewhat more curvy lines would enable these trains to use their pendular systems to better advantage, but there still remains the issue that Michigan has signed on to the Midwest Bi-Level car order. Even if the Talgo equipment was to be 'only temporary', there would still need to be maintenance facilities solely to support these trains.

All told, if the Pacific Northwest's equipment needs are presently fulfilled, and North Carolina's 'rolling museum' can still do so, it's 'send 'em back where they came from'. Gov. Scotty could sure make some political hay as they are loaded aboard a vessel at Milwaukee; after all what else to politicians really do?

The trainsets are brand new and the maintenance requirements should be minimal. With only 2 trainsets to maintain and Michigan footing the bills, I would expect some sort of temporary maintenance facility will be built in either Pontiac or Detroit if the trainsets are sold. In 2018, Michigan could recoup some of their investment by selling the trainsets to WA (hopefully to cover the Seattle to Spokane route!).