Wisconsin Talgos Disposition - MI and now Pacific Surfliner

Tadman wrote:what's wrong with the Horizon cars in service now? Michigan would have to put a pile of money into any cars for ~4 years usage. Am I missing something?

Maybe Amtrak is counting on them being available for a different use?

Tadman wrote:The MARC cars come to mind as the only sizeable fleet out there certified for 110. Here's the problem - we know they have commuter seating. If it's anything like their cousins on the South Shore, it's freaking rotten. A Chicago-South Bend ride is punishment in those seats. I can't imagine a Chicago-Detroit run.

And what's wrong with the Horizon cars in service now? Michigan would have to put a pile of money into any cars for ~4 years usage. Am I missing something?

I think the whole thing is an exercise to comply with the PRIIA legislation.
How can anyone come up with the cars in such a short time frame ?

Suburban Station wrote:so could the leased sets run the route in less time than the new bilevels?

That is the idea. Pretty much, that limits Michigan to a (probably more expensive) lease of Horizons or Amfleets, a portion of the ex-MARC fleet rebuilt absurdly quickly to intercity configuration, or the Talgos. If Talgo America makes good on its hell-on-wheels operating structure, it should be no problem for them to bid.

EDIT: though if you mean maximum average speed, the bilevels stand to be certified for 125 mph I believe. These would be 110 mph only, for the most part.

Suburban Station wrote:so could the leased sets run the route in less time than the new bilevels?

There is the fact that the east end of the Michigan Central is not very straight. It's quite curvy in fact. Much as I'm not a Talgo proponent, it makes quite a bit more sense for this route (ergo my opposition is far lower). If you have a second, take a quick glance on Google maps and you'll see how wiggly the route is east of Jackson or Albion.

Some of us may recall the Classic Trains Mag article a few years back about the Twilight Limited under NYC auspices. It made fairly specific mention of the fact that the competing PRR/WAB "Detroit Arrow" was on tangent straight track while the NYC/MC route was quite curvy. Here's what I don't understand - why did PRR's Detroit train run on Wabash when PRR's Fort Wayne line was immediately parallel? Of course this is all moot today as the corridor trains run on recently-aquired MC trackage while the Wabash is gone and the PRR is a goat track.

Tadman wrote:

Suburban Station wrote:so could the leased sets run the route in less time than the new bilevels?

There is the fact that the east end of the Michigan Central is not very straight. It's quite curvy in fact. Much as I'm not a Talgo proponent, it makes quite a bit more sense for this route (ergo my opposition is far lower). If you have a second, take a quick glance on Google maps and you'll see how wiggly the route is east of Jackson or Albion.

Some of us may recall the Classic Trains Mag article a few years back about the Twilight Limited under NYC auspices. It made fairly specific mention of the fact that the competing PRR/WAB "Detroit Arrow" was on tangent straight track while the NYC/MC route was quite curvy. Here's what I don't understand - why did PRR's Detroit train run on Wabash when PRR's Fort Wayne line was immediately parallel? Of course this is all moot today as the corridor trains run on recently-aquired MC trackage while the Wabash is gone and the PRR is a goat track.

Oh, do I have thoughts on routing issues (that don't belong in this thread.) Otherwise, I agree that the Talgo makes a lot more sense on the MC, on the MILW west of LaCrosse, and on the Blackhawk than it ever did on the MILW between Chicago and Milwaukee.

mtuandrew wrote:Oh, do I have thoughts on routing issues (that don't belong in this thread.) Otherwise, I agree that the Talgo makes a lot more sense on the MC, on the MILW west of LaCrosse, and on the Blackhawk than it ever did on the MILW between Chicago and Milwaukee.

You're correct, but I wish to remind everyone that when Wisconsin ordered the first two Talgo train sets., they planned to order two more for the Milwaukee to Madison extension - and all four train sets would go to Madison before turning back to Chicago. The tracks between Milwaukee and Madison aren't as straight as they are between Milwaukee and Chicago, and those tracks made the Talgo train sets the favorites.
When the decision was made not to extend the trains to Madison, the Talgo train sets were no longer the favorite choice anymore - and thus the order was cancelled by the state. Which of course created the mess and resulting lawsuit over the train sets.

dowlingm wrote:

Tadman wrote:what's wrong with the Horizon cars in service now? Michigan would have to put a pile of money into any cars for ~4 years usage. Am I missing something?

Maybe Amtrak is counting on them being available for a different use?

The reasons that MI DOT may be seeking to get interim replacement equipment for the Wolverine service may come down to the reliability problems that occurred during the deep freeze in January and February and the fees that Amtrak is charging for the Horizons. With the investment of federal and state money being put into the Wolverine corridor, the train service is getting more attention and bad publicity on the trains getting delayed or canceled or breaking down enroute due to equipment problems does not make for a positive impression with the public.

With 2 unused new shiny Talgo trainsets sitting there in WI that one hopes were properly designed to deal with Midwest winters, MI DOT may simply be thinking, geez, why not put them to use for the next 3 years?

In response to Tadman's question about the Detroit Arrow, the Detroit trains used the PRR from Chicago to Fort Wayne and the Wabash from there to Detroit; that's the only way they could match the MC's time. I think somebody pointed out (I forget on what forum) that the Detroit Arrow was actually carded on a faster schedule than the Broadway from Chicago to Fort Wayne. An interesting contrast, in a way, with the Chicago-New York service, where the PRR had the hills and the NYC was straight and flat.

If the Michigan sponsoring agency can come up with some solid economic reason for acquiring these Talgo sets, possibly someone will decide on some 'fusion' livery encompassing Blue, Maize, and Green into such.

Oh but whoops; do we wish to offend students of the three Regional schools, with enrollment nearly equal to either of the two State schools, as well as several of the small private colleges on, or nearly on, line?

A blue and maize streamliner, eh? Perhaps the best looking streamliner ever...



I know what appears to be the bow wave is actually a stylization of the UofM helmets but it reminds me of the bow wave put off by the PM/C&O ferry fleet. Also, this isn't much different than today's CSX livery. Not bad for 1947.

Tadman wrote:I know what appears to be the bow wave is actually a stylization of the UofM helmets .

Be it known, Mr. Dunville, this Illini knew early in the game then when on the campus in Ann Arbor (once was bunked out in the frat chapter's house), the school's colors are Maize and Blue...never Yellow.

I was last on the UofM's campus during 2012 (havent been on my own since '05) for a UMS Detroit Symphony concert; this time, however, not on some bunk bed upstairs in the open bay barracks, but rather at the Campus Inn.

mtuandrew wrote:

Suburban Station wrote:so could the leased sets run the route in less time than the new bilevels?

That is the idea. Pretty much, that limits Michigan to a (probably more expensive) lease of Horizons or Amfleets, a portion of the ex-MARC fleet rebuilt absurdly quickly to intercity configuration, or the Talgos. If Talgo America makes good on its hell-on-wheels operating structure, it should be no problem for them to bid.

EDIT: though if you mean maximum average speed, the bilevels stand to be certified for 125 mph I believe. These would be 110 mph only, for the most part.

talgos were built for 125 I beleive, not that it matters, the ability to lower trip time is the most important aspect. CErtainly Talgo would make a much bigger splash for Michigan than retreads

If I understand correctly, the Talgos are two 14 car train sets. Does Michigan need sets of that length or would some sort of reformation be done?

14 Talgo coaches probably about equals the capacity of the typical 5 Amfleet/Horizon coach consist!

Page 31 claims they have 397 seats each. That's roughly comparable to a 5-car set of Amfleets.