One-Seat Ride to NYC on Raritan Valley Line

I wonder too about how big the boom would be if you got regular one seat rides. I'm sure there will be some significant change, but wonder if it will be a "boom" and exactly how far out it will go.

I'm under the impression that ridership increased significantly when they got rid of the prehistoric cars and got comets circa the late '80s. BUT i think it was increasing everywhere at the time. Anyone know if that growth there anymore than anyone else?

michaelk wrote:
Exactly- the problem is they killed ARC not that the line isn't electrified.

Even electrifying the line doesn't fix the lack of ARC. You could spend a bajillion to electrify it and then everyone would still need to get off in newark to change trains.

Not true at all. There is concept that you and others can't seem to wrap your minds around and that is connecting capacity. The longest train on the Raritan Valley line is typically shorter than the shortest train on the NJCL,NEC and the Midtown Directs. This is because the diesel engines aren't as powerful as the electrics. Therefore, trains on the aforementioned lines can run with extra cars so they have the capacity to take on the connecting passengers at NWK and SEC. If you run a Raritan train directly into NYP, another train that has the capacity to take on the connecting passengers would have to make way for the shorter Raritan train.

Now......


If you electrify the Raritan Valley line, you will now have the ability to run longer, heavier trains that can ferry enough equipment to take on connecting passengers at NWK without destroying the schedule. It would be an even trade of slots instead of taking the slot for a 10 car train and giving it to a 7 car train. You could evenly swap a Raritan slot for a Rahway Rocket slot or a NJCL slot. You can send a few of the shorter Midtowns back to HOB and passengers could connect to the longer Raritan train at SEC.

So, yes. Electrifying the Raritan would help the line in the same way it helped the NJCL passengers. It took a grand total of 3 years to electrify the NJLC from Matawan to Long Branch and they completely redesigned Long Branch and built a yard in the process. Granted, the RVL is longer than the NJCL, but I'd bet you could electrify the RVL and use the dual modes over the Lehigh Line quicker than you can build a new tunnel and expand capacity into NYP.

ThirdRail7 wrote:

michaelk wrote:
Exactly- the problem is they killed ARC not that the line isn't electrified.

Even electrifying the line doesn't fix the lack of ARC. You could spend a bajillion to electrify it and then everyone would still need to get off in newark to change trains.

Not true at all. There is concept that you and others can't seem to wrap your minds around and that is connecting capacity. The longest train on the Raritan Valley line is typically shorter than the shortest train on the NJCL,NEC and the Midtown Directs. This is because the diesel engines aren't as powerful as the electrics. Therefore, trains on the aforementioned lines can run with extra cars so they have the capacity to take on the connecting passengers at NWK and SEC. If you run a Raritan train directly into NYP, another train that has the capacity to take on the connecting passengers would have to make way for the shorter Raritan train.

Now......


If you electrify the Raritan Valley line, you will now have the ability to run longer, heavier trains that can ferry enough equipment to take on connecting passengers at NWK without destroying the schedule. It would be an even trade of slots instead of taking the slot for a 10 car train and giving it to a 7 car train. You could evenly swap a Raritan slot for a Rahway Rocket slot or a NJCL slot. You can send a few of the shorter Midtowns back to HOB and passengers could connect to the longer Raritan train at SEC.

So, yes. Electrifying the Raritan would help the line in the same way it helped the NJCL passengers. It took a grand total of 3 years to electrify the NJLC from Matawan to Long Branch and they completely redesigned Long Branch and built a yard in the process. Granted, the RVL is longer than the NJCL, but I'd bet you could electrify the RVL and use the dual modes over the Lehigh Line quicker than you can build a new tunnel and expand capacity into NYP.

No i get your point about what do you do with the transfers- if you read my posts on the matter (in other threads) you can see I'm well aware that a 5-6 care RVL isn't going to absorb a NJCL never mind a NEC train at Newark.

But on what planet are they going to spend a bajillion dollars to electrify the line so that they can then run 10-12 car trains- that then run half empty - so that they can steal a NJCL slot and make those people transfer- thereby pissing them off to no end? You would spend a HUGE bundle of money to take one lines problem and foist it on another line(s). Worse yet- the half empty 10 car RVL trains might actually get full since there would be a one seat ride- and now where do the NJCL people go- the roof like in india?

If there was ever going to be money to electrify the line they could have done it before midtown direct when there were slots- but they didn't then. They could have done that back in the day without messing up anyone else. No there's really nothing you can do besides nibble around the edges until new tunnels get build. You can futz with a train or two- piss off a few thousand other riders to make some people happy- but why on earth wold you spend a fortune to do that?

So electrifying the line is just not going to happen for the sake of allowing others to transfer onto RVL trains.

If we are going to dream then they can electrify aldene to raritan/whitehouse/phillipsburg/wherever and THEN add a third electrified track along the lehigh line with an electrified passing siding somewhere in there to boot. At that point you might as well toss in the flyover at hunter becasue that's going to be the next bottleneck anyhow. Now we're in for 1.5 bajillion and still we haven't really gotten a significant net number of new one seat riders- merely just pissed off existing people who now would need to change trains.

If the ONLY hold up is the need to make bigger trains they could just use a 45 on each end and do it tomorrow instead of waiting for money to be found and 3 years of construction.

Previously, I would have told you how ludicrous your post is in graphic detail. However, with JT being gone, I don't really have the desire to hang here anymore.

So, enjoy yourself and your transfers, one seat rides, Alps, or whatever else comes your way.

But I'd like to say and I mean this from the bottom of my heart:

Stay safe, be well and feel good.

Mr. ThirdRail is spot on in his concerns. With the current setup of the insanely busy section of the NEC between NWK and NYP, Northeast Corridor and NJCL trains not only serve passengers at Edison, New Brunswick, the Amboys, and Woodbridge, but also people from Waldwick, Spring Valley, and Port Jervis.

When everything is all said and done you need to maintain the same amount of passenger seats going into and out of New York Penn as there are now. That's one of the most important factors at play here. Take a 12 car NEC train leaving NYP at rush hour. Not everybody on that train is going to Metropark, Metuchen, or New Brunswick. A decent chunk of them are going to get off at SEC. Even more at NWK. Now some of those passengers that got off will be replaced at NWK with riders off PATH, so it sort of balances out. But if you don't have 12 cars going through those North River Tunnels, there's going to be trouble.

If SEC didn't exist this whole thing would be a lot easier.

I don't know how else to explain this, Mr. ThirdRail's remarks have been very clear. When this business is done NJT has to maintain both train slots AND number of cars going in. Swapping out a 12-car NEC train for a puny 7-car RVL dual mode is not going to end well.

So we leave NEC and NJCL trains as they are. How about we drop out one of the M & E trains and replace that slot with one from the RVL? We will not see electrification in my lifetime. If a new tunnel was approved and plans were in place, that will not be ready for 10 years so how about sharing the pain?

necrails wrote:So we leave NEC and NJCL trains as they are. How about we drop out one of the M & E trains and replace that slot with one from the RVL? We will not see electrification in my lifetime. If a new tunnel was approved and plans were in place, that will not be ready for 10 years so how about sharing the pain?

M & E trains during the morning rush can be just as packed as NEC trains.

Fan Railer wrote:M & E trains during the morning rush can be just as packed as NEC trains.

They say the M&E is the NEC of the Hoboken Division

lirr42 wrote:Mr. ThirdRail is spot on in his concerns. With the current setup of the insanely busy section of the NEC between NWK and NYP, Northeast Corridor and NJCL trains not only serve passengers at Edison, New Brunswick, the Amboys, and Woodbridge, but also people from Waldwick, Spring Valley, and Port Jervis.

When everything is all said and done you need to maintain the same amount of passenger seats going into and out of New York Penn as there are now. That's one of the most important factors at play here. Take a 12 car NEC train leaving NYP at rush hour. Not everybody on that train is going to Metropark, Metuchen, or New Brunswick. A decent chunk of them are going to get off at SEC. Even more at NWK. Now some of those passengers that got off will be replaced at NWK with riders off PATH, so it sort of balances out. But if you don't have 12 cars going through those North River Tunnels, there's going to be trouble.

If SEC didn't exist this whole thing would be a lot easier.

I don't know how else to explain this, Mr. ThirdRail's remarks have been very clear. When this business is done NJT has to maintain both train slots AND number of cars going in. Swapping out a 12-car NEC train for a puny 7-car RVL dual mode is not going to end well.

I totally follow and agree. I don't think there is anything else to explain.

I guess i didn't explain myself well- my point was that in my humble opinion the only real solution to the mess is to get the tunnels built so there are more tracks between NWK and NYP. Until that is done the only realistic thing they can do is window dressing and toss in a few mid day (like they are doing) or perhaps weekend trains (like they mentioned might happen) and that's about it. I guess also maybe a last train out at night to Raritan after everything else left, but dont know if more than a few people would ride it.

I didn't mean to offend Mr. Thirdrail and i apologize if i did inadvertently.

Heres the thing though guys.. Those 12 car trains were powered by 2 46s for better distribution of the capacities of HEP and actual tractive power, so thats not fair to the dual modes, as the highest amount of MLs I have heard of powered by a single 46 is 10, and the only 12 car trains that run are the Arrows.. In which every car assists in motion of the train. The 45s have oroven they are capable of handling at least 8 MLs on the M@E in revenue service, in both diesel and electric modes, it is not uncommon to see trains of 8 or 9 MLs hauled by a 46 as well. Those weekend trains can get swamped pretty good, and there seemed to be no significant delays to the schedule reported when the 45s were in charge that one weekend. Now.. If the 46As were actually being used to their design capacity and hauling 12 ML trains by themselves, then I wouldnt stick up for the dual modes, but so far, that hasnt been the case. Do I think the 45s will be every bit as quick as the 46s? No, of course they wont, but I do not think that they will fall flat on their faces in this new role either. ARC or not, one seat service into NY on any line that doesnt already have it is ultimately the design goal of the 45.. Why bash them before weve seen what they are actually capable of in the role they were designed for? I think we should at least give them a chance.

michaelk wrote:
I didn't mean to offend Mr. Thirdrail and i apologize if i did inadvertently.

I'm definitely not offended by anything you have stated. My only concern is this:

michaelk wrote:
No i get your point about what do you do with the transfers- if you read my posts on the matter (in other threads) you can see I'm well aware that a 5-6 care RVL isn't going to absorb a NJCL never mind a NEC train at Newark.

But on what planet are they going to spend a bajillion dollars to electrify the line so that they can then run 10-12 car trains- that then run half empty - so that they can steal a NJCL slot and make those people transfer- thereby pissing them off to no end? You would spend a HUGE bundle of money to take one lines problem and foist it on another line(s). Worse yet- the half empty 10 car RVL trains might actually get full since there would be a one seat ride- and now where do the NJCL people go- the roof like in india?

If there was ever going to be money to electrify the line they could have done it before midtown direct when there were slots- but they didn't then. They could have done that back in the day without messing up anyone else. No there's really nothing you can do besides nibble around the edges until new tunnels get build. You can futz with a train or two- piss off a few thousand other riders to make some people happy- but why on earth wold you spend a fortune to do that?

So electrifying the line is just not going to happen for the sake of allowing others to transfer onto RVL trains.

If we are going to dream then they can electrify aldene to raritan/whitehouse/phillipsburg/wherever and THEN add a third electrified track along the lehigh line with an electrified passing siding somewhere in there to boot. At that point you might as well toss in the flyover at hunter becasue that's going to be the next bottleneck anyhow. Now we're in for 1.5 bajillion and still we haven't really gotten a significant net number of new one seat riders- merely just pissed off existing people who now would need to change trains.

If the ONLY hold up is the need to make bigger trains they could just use a 45 on each end and do it tomorrow instead of waiting for money to be found and 3 years of construction.

There is a large piece of the puzzle that you're missing in that statement. There was no way to electrify to Raritan when they added the Midclowns because Conrail would not allow catenary over the Lehigh. They still won't. As such, there was no reason to seriously consider electrifying the RVL.

However, the dual modes can change that.

If you electrify the RVL, you can use the DMs to bridge the the gap between the two electrified territories. While electrification costs money, so does fuel. NJ can run longer trains without burning through tons of fuel. This will allow the unit to leap frog around the system without as much concern for exhausting the fuel supply. Slapping two DMs on as you suggested not only marches through fuel like General Sherman through Georgia, it creates operational issues sincethe Alp-45s are longer than the Alp-46s. If you put two of them on a train, you're limiting where they can fit in NYP...unless you cut cars to compensate. While you appear to discount the thought of electrification as fantasy, I'd like to turn your attention back to the NJCL. The same thing occurred over there. It was electrified to South Amboy. Then, it was extended to Matawan. Eventually, electrification made it to Long Branch. There is nothing wrong with taking the incremental steps you mentioned above. However, you must start somewhere.

Electrifying the RVL is a good first step. Once you beef up the consists, from there you can create slots by combining a few of the corridor coasts with LB service (which is seeing a bit of a ridership drop), a few of the PJC expresses with their middle zone counterparts or possibly expressing to the inner zone and picking up the slots of the corridor coast trains. Hopefully, you can divert a few trains to HOB. IS it piece meal? Sure! However it is something that you can achieve quicker than the tunnels. Indeed, this will complement the new tunnels if they are ever built.

Let's start thinking big and long term.

Eliminating the transfer will be a great first step. Honestly, all the links have to work together for transfers to be seamless. For example, I caught the 7:07 this morning from Metuchen to catch the 7:50 to Hawthorne. Well we arrived 10 minutes late into SEC for whatever reason and the Main line train just left. Apparently "connections" are inconsistently handled by NJT. Now I have to wait for the 8:41 which won't drop me off until 9:08. I feel calling customer service is moot at this point, but if they can at least analyze all rush hour connections in either direction that would help tremendously given that there aren't that many outbound HOB division trains in the AM. #frustration #ventisdone

F40 wrote:Eliminating the transfer will be a great first step. Honestly, all the links have to work together for transfers to be seamless. For example, I caught the 7:07 this morning from Metuchen to catch the 7:50 to Hawthorne. Well we arrived 10 minutes late into SEC for whatever reason and the Main line train just left. Apparently "connections" are inconsistently handled by NJT. Now I have to wait for the 8:41 which won't drop me off until 9:08. I feel calling customer service is moot at this point, but if they can at least analyze all rush hour connections in either direction that would help tremendously given that there aren't that many outbound HOB division trains in the AM. #frustration #ventisdone

Just for future refrence...Eastbound trains on the Newark Division are not advertised, guaranteed connections for Westbound trains on the Hoboken Division at Secaucus. Look in a timetable and you'll notice that. Connections are shown consistently in the same direction of travel. It is impossible to show connections for 11 out of the 12 rail lines that stop in Secaucus in both directions. Think about the Main Bergen timetable now showing a line from Westfield to Hawthorne (RVL), Little Silver to Hawthorne (NJCL), Linden to Hawthorne (NEC), Morristown to Hawthorne (M&E), Bay Street to Hawthorne (MCBL), Oradell to Hawthorne (PVL), Garfield to Hawthorne(ML)...not going to happen, sorry.

srock1028 wrote:

F40 wrote:Eliminating the transfer will be a great first step. Honestly, all the links have to work together for transfers to be seamless. For example, I caught the 7:07 this morning from Metuchen to catch the 7:50 to Hawthorne. Well we arrived 10 minutes late into SEC for whatever reason and the Main line train just left. Apparently "connections" are inconsistently handled by NJT. Now I have to wait for the 8:41 which won't drop me off until 9:08. I feel calling customer service is moot at this point, but if they can at least analyze all rush hour connections in either direction that would help tremendously given that there aren't that many outbound HOB division trains in the AM. #frustration #ventisdone

Just for future refrence...Eastbound trains on the Newark Division are not advertised, guaranteed connections for Westbound trains on the Hoboken Division at Secaucus. Look in a timetable and you'll notice that. Connections are shown consistently in the same direction of travel. It is impossible to show connections for 11 out of the 12 rail lines that stop in Secaucus in both directions. Think about the Main Bergen timetable now showing a line from Westfield to Hawthorne (RVL), Little Silver to Hawthorne (NJCL), Linden to Hawthorne (NEC), Morristown to Hawthorne (M&E), Bay Street to Hawthorne (MCBL), Oradell to Hawthorne (PVL), Garfield to Hawthorne(ML)...not going to happen, sorry.

Well, this is the reason why rail travel remains a limited option for a lot of people. As I mentioned, given that there are not many westbound trains on the HOB division in the morning, it shouldn't be difficult to establish a rule so that connections can be made based on when a NWK division train gets into SEC (regardless of line). At the very least, if they know trains on the upper level are late, I am sure it is reasonable for outbound trains on the lower level to be held for a minute or two (which has been done before).

Or.. Simpler idea, check the time your train gets to the transfer point, and what time another train leaves said transfer point, make sure you select a pair of trains with some padding, for a delay on the first one, time to get to the platform on ehich the second train will arrive, and so as to not stress yourself out if one train is a few minutes late, write down your itenerary so you remember, and go on your way. NJT while they may make the effort to ensure certain trains connect, isnt responsible for how your planning turns out, you are. I always like to leave at least 20 minutes pad time when i take a train with a transfer, so i can take my time and think clearly about where i need to go, and not nearly fall down the stairs trying to get to the lower platforms in time.