LIRR Engineer Threatens to Call Police On Me

DutchRailnut wrote:Just for record, there is NO photoban in effect on any MTA property, this red shirted individual was wrong and acting as vigilante.
HE had no legal business to tell you to stop.
MTA is only proposing ban on subways and has not expanded the request to include LIRR or MNCR.

A couple monthes ago, I was on an MNR Harlem Line train, heading North, when an older gentleman was about to take a picture out the front window. Right then a state cop told him he wasn't allowed to. I politely tried to tell the cop that I thought it wasn't even a rule yet AND that even if it was, it would only apply to NYCT. I tried to ask him probably 5 times and he just ignored me every time.

I am considering a railfanning trip on the Harlem and Hudson lines on Friday, and I want to bring my camera. What can any of you recommend that I do/say if I encounter a similiar situation? I looked on the MNR website for a list of rules, like the subway at least used to have, but I couldn't find anything. (If I had, I would have printed it and taken it with me and in such a situation I would have asked the cop/employee to point out the cited "rule"). Would I be able to get a copy at a ticket window or maybe the info booth or stationmasters office at GCT?

Any ideas? Thanks in advance.

Red, as you are doing something that is technically against the law, tread softly. Read my posts in this thread and you'll encounter no problems. The State Troopers, among other agencies have been asked not to permit photographing of Railroad property.

Be respectful and polite. Go away and come back later.

Clem

In general, you really should not have any problems taking pictures of the trains as well as from passenger windows. There is really no law to taking pictures out of the front windowd; depending on who the engineer is as well as equipment. Now, many engineers do not want any unauthorized people to take pictures out of the front window, even if you have the older M series multiple units. People have had their bad experiences on LIRR with photography. In fact, in a few weeks, I might hit the LIRR somewhere. Also, toward the end of the week, I might railfan at Ardsley since I attend Mercy.

Clemuel wrote:Dutch,

Maybe the Dutch law libraries rip these pages out of their US books. Sox, for your kind and respectful request I offer this legislation which has been interupted, used and perhaps twisted to discourage photography of railroads:

Most reciently under Homeland Security:

USC Title 6 - Domestic Security
Chapter I - Homeland Security Organization
Subchapter II Informational Analysis & Infastructure Protection
Part B Critical Infastructure Information

Under this law the Director of Homeland Security has established the Long Island Railroad a "Critical Infastructure" in November 2003.

This designation only duplicated the restrictions imposed in the meeting of the Transportation Security Oversignt Board, February 2002 as established by

USC Title 49
Subchapter I - Department of Transportation
Chapter 1 - Organization
Sec 115 - Transportation Security Oversight Board

Now these restrictions are nothing new. Traditionally, (at lease since WWII days,) Title 50 was applied against photographers.

USC Title 50 - War and National Defense
Chapter 4A - Photographing, sketching, Mapping etc Defensive Installations.

While major parts of this law were repealed in 1948, those restricting photographing were not. Much case law established Transit Systems, Railroads, etc as "defense installations," extending these restrictions to them. After the recient decisions under Title 6, there now stand a myrid of federal laws under which a photographer of railroad installations can be prosecuted.

I am certain there are corresponding state laws that can be inflicted against those taking pictures of security installations.

Now, Clemuel is not quoting this stuff to scare anyone, but merely to maintain Clemuel's esteem as a source of fact. In reality, these laws are probably NEVER applied against the railfan, excepting the occassional opportunity they grant to detain, harass and education the obnoxious few who fail to comply with an officer's reasonable request.

Those who know me know where I stand on laws of this nature. I think they fly in the face of the Fourth Amendment. It is shameful that our legislators have virtually abandoned the Constitution of The Republic.

Clem

I'd be interested if any of these directives have actually been applied and sustained. In many (most?) cases, the directive is never tested in court, so its legality remains dubious.

Given the decidedly liberal flavor of the federal jury system in NYC, I'd be very surprised if the feds would ever try to bring a case in NY on these principles.

VDYard wrote:I remember when the MTA Police accidently stumbled on that bunch of Iranians in Brooklyn who were planning to bomb Flatbush Avenue Station. .

No "terrorism" charges were ever brought, as I recall, on this huge case, discovered right before the Republican convention and its huge police overtime grab-bag.

I'd feel a little safer if the cops issued fewer press releases and spent more time actually doing police work

On another note, LIRR/MNCR engineers should really be required to at least wear a badge signifying that they are an employee. I thought it was a passenger at first.

I agree. I took the express Port Jefferson branch train that leaves Jamaica at 5:12 PM weekdays (which I used to watch as a kid passing through Mineola around 5:30 PM) to see what it was like. We took it to Huntington and caught a train back to Westbury. As we're sitting in the head M3 waiting to depart a bummy looking guy gets on the train, and draws a key and gets into the engineer seat. There was no indication at all that he was an employee.[/quote]

Clemuel wrote:Red, as you are doing something that is technically against the law, tread softly. Read my posts in this thread and you'll encounter no problems. The State Troopers, among other agencies have been asked not to permit photographing of Railroad property.

Be respectful and polite. Go away and come back later.

Clem

Wait, I thought the whole point of this thread is that it isn't illegal. Can someone please clarify?

Red,

Read my posts here. Definately illegal. Or ask a State Trooper.

Clem

excuse me bluebelly i am NOT an idiot. i was jus correcting sumthin to the other peeps on the board. why is that such a problem for you. by the way i am a college grad so whose the idiot?

La-Qwanda wrote:excuse me bluebelly i am NOT an idiot. i was jus correcting sumthin to the other peeps on the board. why is that such a problem for you. by the way i am a college grad so whose the idiot?

Let me guess, you were an English Major right?I have no problem with you just correcting something for the other people on the board. What I was refering to is sleeping in the cab while on duty. Doing so is idiotic. But that's ok, waste your 2-3yrs as and A/C sleeping in the cab instead of learning something. That will really prepare you to qualify. Not to mention the fact you can get in trouble if caught.

Just to add one more correction to Bluebelly's. When you say "whose the idiot". Whose should be who's. It is a contraction for "who is". And what is a peep, besides those little marshmallow things they sell at Easter?

A couple monthes ago, I was on an MNR Harlem Line train, heading North, when an older gentleman was about to take a picture out the front window. Right then a state cop told him he wasn't allowed to. I politely tried to tell the cop that I thought it wasn't even a rule yet AND that even if it was, it would only apply to NYCT. I tried to ask him probably 5 times and he just ignored me every time.

While the officer may have been mistaken as to the policy/law intervening could get you charged with such favorites as "obstructing governmental administration" or a "discon (disorderly conduct)" and if it is on a Friday, Saturday or Sunday it is very possible that if they decide to lock you up that you could be idetained until Monday. Just some food for thought.

tell the nice person with the badge and gun..."sorry about this, I didn't realize I was breaking the law"... and move along. No rail photo is worth a confrontation. Do you REALLY feel like getting locked up? Is it worth the hassle just for a photo you could get another day when the MTA-PD car isn't there?

excuse me mr bluebelly maybe u should look at your poor spelling and grammer before you cristicize others. i shall quote you!

"What I was refering to is sleeping in the cab while on duty. Doing so is idiotic. But that's ok, waste your 2-3yrs as and A/C sleeping in the cab instead of learning something."

oh yeah your real bright. another LIRR moron in a uniform. boy u realy knowd your stuff. wat a jerk. go ahed idiot edit your post so none can see how u wrote wat u wrote.

mr rosen maybe before you make fun of us and u know wat i mean u might consider the acomplishemnts, culture and extastensionalims we brought to this country and railroad! so y dont u stop! be nice.

I rest my case.