LIRR Engineer Threatens to Call Police On Me

I guess there are troubles with photographing on the LIRR. In a few weeks, I might go out to Greenport with my camera. I just hope that I do not run into the same trouble that some people went into on the way to that Riverhead train show, at KO.

Clem: Thanks for your objective observations. But you've created another question. If a railfan has a train ticket and is photographing from the station platform, then he's NOT a trespasser, right? And if a non-uniformed person, NOT displaying official LIRR ID questioned me, I would insist on seeing ID to assure me that HE is not a deranged trespasser. And if he refused to properly ID himself, I think I would call the police and report that trespasser for harassing me.

Head-end,

Yes, and yes. You are right on both counts. Practically, any blow-hard who demands that you do or don't do something can be met with "Who the heck are you??".

Back when I was a kid taking railroad pictures I was yelled at and chased away a few times, and I usually complied and left. Dad taught me to stay away from trouble and someone who was fatter and older than I yelling at me ment trouble. After the offending individual left, I came back and took my pictures.

Now this was before terrorists lerked behind every rock and every blow-hard was a self-anointed Protector of the Republic.

Remember that someone today can truly ruin your day for taking pictures if you give them reason to. You can wind up spending more than a few hours handcuffed to a bench somewhere answering silly questions.

Follow Dad's advice. Be polite, comply with reasonable requests and avoid confrontation. You'll get all the pictures you want, deal with less annoyances and probably make some new friends too.

And none of them will be cellmates.

Clem

Thanks Clem. In general I agree with you. If someone stops you from taking photos today, you can probably get your pictures another day. I just needed to make that one point about people trying to give orders without identifying themselves. Thanks again for being a "voice of reason" on this forum, as well as sharing a lot of interesting info with us railfans.

Hey guys: if you didn't already see it, check out today's Newsday, page A-51. There is a letter to the editor pointing out that while the various police agencies and MTA employees keep us railfans under control, a homeless trespasser in an unsecured area is thought to have lit the fire that caused havoc in the NYC Subway this week. And so maybe MTA should focus their attention more on the type of people who cause these disasters, instead of tourists and railfans taking photos. Couldn't have said it better myself.

Head-end View wrote:Hey guys: if you didn't already see it, check out today's Newsday, page A-51. There is a letter to the editor pointing out that while the various police agencies and MTA employees keep us railfans under control, a homeless trespasser in an unsecured area is thought to have lit the fire that caused havoc in the NYC Subway this week. And so maybe MTA should focus their attention more on the type of people who cause these disasters, instead of tourists and railfans taking photos. Couldn't have said it better myself.

The NY Times quoted the NYPD's spokesman as saying the NYPD in the subways (xNYCTA police) had no obligation to protect MTA's and NYCTA's property. Their job is to protect people. The spokesperson had been asked why the NYPD hadn't secured the relay room, evicted the homeless guy, etc.

I remember when the NYCTAPD had an obligation to protect stuff and people.

Since I'm a rail fan myself, and I myself have taken pictures in the past, I don't react too much to someone taking pictures on the platform. But we have been told to report anything suspicious out there, and for many, taking photographs of trains can erk someone the wrong way. While I personally don't agree with any photo ban, I do understand that there can be that one individual out there who might be up to no good. At the same time, you also have to take into consideration that there are passengers on board who come up to us and complain about something they saw such as someone taking pictures. Unless we know what the deal is, we would have to investigate and see if that person taking pictures might be the one of the wrong kind. I ran into a guy at Mineola last Sunday who had a camera and a scanner to listen to the LIRR radio. I could tell by a mile a way that he's a rail buff wholoves to watch trains, and he has that right to do it. I spoke to him for a little bit while I was waiting for my train to arrive. But when I got on my train, the engineer asked me about that guy, and I told him that he was a rail buff taking pictures of trains, and to not worry about him. Some folks just don't recognize this hobby, and after 9/11, people are still very edgy. Have patience, and try to be discreet.

I think that "being discreet" would exacerbate any confrontation. I'm not saying bring out the tripods and set up camp on the platform, but you shouldn't try to hide your camera. That makes you look more suspicious IMHO. Cheers!

John

"From a legal point of view, federal law prohibits you from photographing anything on the Long Island Rail Road property"

Please specifically styate the Federal law that you are referring to- by statute or CFR number- I have to see this myself!

DutchRailnut wrote:Just for record, there is NO photoban in effect on any MTA property, this red shirted individual was wrong and acting as vigilante.
HE had no legal business to tell you to stop.
MTA is only proposing ban on subways and has not expanded the request to include LIRR or MNCR.

Knowing this, I would just politely tell him that I am not doing anything wrong and if he wants me too leave he would have to call the cops. If they came and wanted to arrest me, I wouldn't fight it. Upon my release, I would sue the you-know-whats off the NYPD(or whatever PD arrests me), the MTA and possibly the city for false arrest (arresting me on charges of something that simply isn't illegal).

We need to stand up to these a-holes.

R142A wrote:

DutchRailnut wrote:Just for record, there is NO photoban in effect on any MTA property, this red shirted individual was wrong and acting as vigilante.
HE had no legal business to tell you to stop.
MTA is only proposing ban on subways and has not expanded the request to include LIRR or MNCR.

Thanks Dutch, I was unclear on that. I was pretty sure that any LIRR or MNCR photoban would come under even heavier opposition than the subways, since it is FRA-governed, and runs outside for most of its length. Hopefully, they won't try to pull a NJ Transit on us, and try to outlaw photographs from outside the property.

On another note, LIRR/MNCR engineers should really be required to at least wear a badge signifying that they are an employee. I thought it was a passenger at first.

Um, my understanding is that you can photograph anything in/viewable from public property with the exception of places with a reasonable expectation of privacy (such as a locker room). If they do say that for MNR, I fully intend on going somewhere like the bridge over the tracks in Mt. Kisco (over the 3 track stretch) and taking pics until the cops show, then telling them that if they don't like it, to build a damn wall.

Clemuel wrote:Lets look at this photo thing and the crank that asked you to leave from two different angles, the practical and the legal.

From a legal point of view, federal law prohibits you from photographing anything on the Long Island Rail Road property. Additionally, if you are on Railroad property without the purpose of boarding a train, you can be asked to leave by an officer or representative of the Company. If you fail to leave you can be ejected or arrested by any employee or Company officer. Not all employees must wear an ID Card, and no employee is required to show identification to a trespasser, nor give their name to a trespasser.

From a practical point of view, few people care if you take pictures of the Railroad. The LIRR used to issue Photo Passes that would ward off a cranky or self-rightous employee who yelled at them. You found what I feel is an overly ambitious busybody who got in your face. They're out there and they always have been.

Let it go and don't lose any sleep. Nobody will care if you "report" the person who yelled at you. Some will feel he was doing a brave thing and somehow saving the world from terrorists or some such stupidity.

Turn the other cheek and enjoy your photography.

C

Could you please give a little more detail about these federal laws? This is the first I have heard of them. thanks.

Now wouldn't it be in the interest of the MTA for us to hang around places like stations ? (not necessarially taking photos, but just there for whatever reason). WE are the people who will notice if something isn't right and report it. By far most people wouldn't take notice to any problems or suspicios conditions, etc., but I think most of us would!

Clemuel its disturbing you quote a federal law that does not exist, Lawyers can't find it, ACLU can't find it, but you quote a law ????
Its sad that the 9/11 paranoia has turned the USA into USSA, were just like in Communist Russia People rat on each other, all in name of security.

Dutch,

Maybe the Dutch law libraries rip these pages out of their US books. Sox, for your kind and respectful request I offer this legislation which has been interupted, used and perhaps twisted to discourage photography of railroads:

Most reciently under Homeland Security:

USC Title 6 - Domestic Security
Chapter I - Homeland Security Organization
Subchapter II Informational Analysis & Infastructure Protection
Part B Critical Infastructure Information

Under this law the Director of Homeland Security has established the Long Island Railroad a "Critical Infastructure" in November 2003.

This designation only duplicated the restrictions imposed in the meeting of the Transportation Security Oversignt Board, February 2002 as established by

USC Title 49
Subchapter I - Department of Transportation
Chapter 1 - Organization
Sec 115 - Transportation Security Oversight Board

Now these restrictions are nothing new. Traditionally, (at lease since WWII days,) Title 50 was applied against photographers.

USC Title 50 - War and National Defense
Chapter 4A - Photographing, sketching, Mapping etc Defensive Installations.

While major parts of this law were repealed in 1948, those restricting photographing were not. Much case law established Transit Systems, Railroads, etc as "defense installations," extending these restrictions to them. After the recient decisions under Title 6, there now stand a myrid of federal laws under which a photographer of railroad installations can be prosecuted.

I am certain there are corresponding state laws that can be inflicted against those taking pictures of security installations.

Now, Clemuel is not quoting this stuff to scare anyone, but merely to maintain Clemuel's esteem as a source of fact. In reality, these laws are probably NEVER applied against the railfan, excepting the occassional opportunity they grant to detain, harass and education the obnoxious few who fail to comply with an officer's reasonable request.

Those who know me know where I stand on laws of this nature. I think they fly in the face of the Fourth Amendment. It is shameful that our legislators have virtually abandoned the Constitution of The Republic.

Clem