Breaking News & Slip-slide conditions

I just heard on the scanner that a westbound from Huntington is being cancelled at Hicksville. As they were going through the area of the Robbins Lane crossing, something fell from the M-7 cab ceiling causing the engineer to suffer a head gash. The conductor suggested over the air to 204 that the flat wheels from slip-slide may have caused vibrations that caused the equipment to fall. He also said it might be the result of (ahem) poor workmanship. Engineer is being treated by EMS.

Speaking of slip-slide: I've heard many reports of difficulty stopping/flat-wheels etc. the last few days. Is the LIRR still using a special train to sand the rails the way they've done in past years? I haven't heard any references to the "sand-train" (or whatever they call it) being out on the road this week.

I hope the engineer is alright.

Seems liek this is turning into a bad fall already. . cant be to good with witner just around the corner. I could swear is wasent like this last year.

Maybe they will need to dig out the B&M car out of Ko if it gets worse. . as now there only using the M1 sandites AFAIK. .
Maybe Clem can chime in on this.

overweight railcar (ehm M7's & C3's) + leaves and rain = thunderous noise and crazy vibration, not to mention square wheels. I wonder if anyone at the FRA thought about that when they were doing their research on buff strength.. oh wait they did no research.. anyway.

My office in Jamaica vibrates when those beer cans go by and the sound is akin to a column of tanks coming down Archer. As I walked under the 160th street underpass tonight, i nearly was scared sh#$tless by the sound of one of those square wheeled junk buckets going overhead. I'd like to see the rail profile, gotta have some nice dings?

Maybe the LIRR will use some of the bond money to hire some consultant to tell them that their equipment is way too heavy.... and that perhaps put all this stuff on a diet?

There's nothing to blame on this but the leaves. The Railroad does all it can to rid the rails of leaves and the residue that is left when the leaves are gone. The sandite trains are out every night now (except out to Montauk it seems) and I'm assuming the leaf crusher trains will start soon.

Don't forget the sandite car that's in Morris Park. I guess if they are in desperate need of more sandite cars, they could fix up and use the Pullman coach in Morris Park and the Boston & Maine (W85?) that's on the Team Track in Ronkonkoma Yard, providing they're still in operable condition.

DE402, you're right about the flat spots on those wheels. The weight of those cars multiplies a small flat spot on the wheel much worse than if it was an M1 car. Sounds like a freight train is going through at Hicksville when you're at street level.

Joe

In the cabs of the m-7 there is an airduct, which sits in the ceiling right above the engineers head. To controll the airflow coming out of this airduct, the geniuses at Bombardier designed a cover plate about the size of a frisbee to cover the airduct, and deflect the air. It is controlled by twisting it one way to open it, and the other to close it. You guessed it, when opening them, many of them are not secured correctly and have fallen on the employee's heads. I don't know the details of this one, but I bet it shook open and fell on the engineers head

de402 wrote:overweight railcar (ehm M7's & C3's) + leaves and rain = thunderous noise and crazy vibration, not to mention square wheels. I wonder if anyone at the FRA thought about that when they were doing their research on buff strength.. oh wait they did no research.. anyway.

My office in Jamaica vibrates when those beer cans go by and the sound is akin to a column of tanks coming down Archer. As I walked under the 160th street underpass tonight, i nearly was scared sh#$tless by the sound of one of those square wheeled junk buckets going overhead. I'd like to see the rail profile, gotta have some nice dings?

Maybe the LIRR will use some of the bond money to hire some consultant to tell them that their equipment is way too heavy.... and that perhaps put all this stuff on a diet?

Don't be too sure, the M1's (tincans) have some horrible flat spots, it's not just the M7's which have them. Don't blame the design of the train on flat spots, any train could get them.

[/quote]

Don't be too sure, the M1's (tincans) have some horrible flat spots, it's not just the M7's which have them. Don't blame the design of the train on flat spots, any train could get them.[/quote]

True, they do have horrible flat spots, but i think that's due to a lack of maintance than leaves.. I'm not a physicist by trade, but a heavier object exerts less force than a lighter one on the track..

de402 wrote:

Don't be too sure, the M1's (tincans) have some horrible flat spots, it's not just the M7's which have them. Don't blame the design of the train on flat spots, any train could get them.

True, they do have horrible flat spots, but i think that's due to a lack of maintance than leaves.. I'm not a physicist by trade, but a heavier object exerts less force than a lighter one on the track..[/quote]

I think maintanence can be an issue when it comes to flat spots. Frequent wheel truing can make flat spots less common. Fitting MUs with sanders can also help, but that may make the MUs heavier.

MU's don't require sanders and 98% of entire USA MU fleet has no sanders.

MU's do not have sanders as due to their light weight (as compared to a locomotive). If an MU train were to stop on sand, there is a risk that the small layer of crushed sand will be just enough to prevent the MU train from shunting the signal circuit. This could result in a collision, as the signal to the rear of the MU train would not indicate any occupancy ahead. This is also why a single MU (I think all the LIRR MUs are married pairs, but NJT does have some singles) must have an absolute block with no following movements allowed between interlockings.

For those of you old enough to remember, RDCs were prohibited from using sand while stopping or stopping on sand. If it was not possible to avoid stopping on sand, the train would have to be moved off the sand once the train stopped.

Now, in regards to wheel slip/slide, In my experience, a lighter car will have more problems, as there is less weight on the wheels to provide resistance to spinning or sliding. A heavier car, or locomotive, will exert more down force, due to its weight, that can prevent the wheel from loosing traction.

I hope this engineer is ok. I was supposed to be on the PJ line today, but I slept in.

BTW, Frank, yes, any train could get flat spots, but nearly the entire M7 fleet is notorious for them.

Frank.... ??????? I'd expect M1's to have flat spots by now due to several decades of service. The M7's just arrived/still arriving and they already have numerous amount of flat spots. You would think design might be the reason behind that?



.... or perhaps if we had Dutch's braking skills... our M7 fleet would not have any flat spots !

tushykushy wrote:Frank.... ??????? I'd expect M1's to have flat spots by now due to several decades of service. The M7's just arrived/still arriving and they already have numerous amount of flat spots. You would think design might be the reason behind that?



.... or perhaps if we had Dutch's braking skills... our M7 fleet would not have any flat spots !

No. The design of the trains is not the problem.

The wheels are turned as soon as possible after the flat spots are reported. A car can run around for several days or a week before that happens, however. And yes, both the M-1's and the M-7's develop them. Train handling has much to do with it, and a good motorman can often avoid flattening wheels.

Clem

Clem, I generally find your posts both interesting and informative but on
your most recent one here, I do NOT agree.
I suppose it is a "cop out" to blame the engineer (not motorman) for flat
wheels but it really is the fault of the design of the car and the speed
control system as it works on both the LIRR and Metro-North.
I ran M-1's, M-2's and M-3's for some time on Metro-North and we had
areas were all of the intermediate signals had been removed and we ran
and they still run on cab signal indication. During my time there, if I was
running on a clear cab signal and the cab signal dropped to a less
favorable indication, I had to go to "max brake" and leave the controller in
"max brake" until the speed had been reduced to the speed called for by
the cab signal. In the fall with the wet rail situation, a lot of the cars
developed flat spots from this type of operation but there was not much
that the engineer could do to avoid it given what he/she had to work with.
It is so easy to blame a crew member (engineer in this case) for the
shortcomings of an existing system, but it is not right to do this.
Maybe the LIRR prefers to call its train operators "motormen" but most
railroads and this includes Metro-North call them "engineers".
Noel Weaver