Breaking News & Slip-slide conditions

I don't know about that Peanuts..I think Clem was motoring long before most of us were and would probably handle the train fine.

Yanks Rule, I have to be honest the TA guys that I really admire are the bus operators. I see them in Manhattan driving through traffic and you got to hand it to them guys and gals. Before you go on a tear, I am not saying ANYTHING that would imply your job as a Train Operator is anything less than mine as a Long Island Engineer or if you feel more comfortable...Long Island Motorman.

LI Condr..I have to agree with Yanks..the Yanks do rule! J/K thank you for defending us.

Thank you, Form.

Hay Peanuts... Did I ever say it was easy?

An engineer I am not-- but I never claimed to be one, nor would I ever claim to even be able to shine the shoes of a man who does well that very skilled job every day. While I've operated just about everything that has rode on the LI rails in the past 30 years, Engineer is not my place, craft or trade.

But part of my job is to know that someone is in control of a train's mechanical operation. That someone, in part by virtue of 96 years of Public Law Board decisions, is the Locomotive Engineer.

Handling a train isn't always easy or predictable. It's unfortunate that it sometimes takes just a bit more skill than a particular engineer can muster on a given day and place. Seems that the more skill an engineer posesses, the more responsibility he is willing to place on his own shoulders.

What exactly makes one engineer blow ten car lengths pass a signal in slip slide and the other fifteen who passed through there stop at the signal. What, Peanuts -- dumb luck?? The phase of the moon?? Tailwind? His conductor?

Should we say, "lucky the rails weren't slippery when West Hempstead was crossing in front of you"?

Sorry, Pal. If it was your family on that train, you'd want the engineer held accountable. You'd want a man who would step up to the plate and say, "I am in control of of my train, and I am responsible for what it does."

And that's exactly how the Railroad, the Industry and the courts have looked at it since the Ariel graced the Long Island Rails in 1834.

Clemuel

Well on a more reasonable note here, if an engineer whos responsible and knows the road and knows where to stop, and one day does stop like he always does, but slip slid is the cause of him going a car or 2 through the signal, what's the hell he will catch or if its truely due to the slip slide and he did attempt to stop and nothing happened, what would thoes consenquences be?

A stop signal is to be approached prepared to stop at restricted speed.
Restricted speed dictates that you must have your train under control.
If you slide by a signal you win a 30 day unpaid vacation;-)

http://a257.g.akamaitech.net/7/257/2422 ... 40.305.htm

I define Restricted speed as such: A speed not exceedin fifteen miles per hour at which a train can be stopped within one half tha range of vizzle short of tha next signal, son, another train, son, obstruczzle or switch improperly lined, dog, lookin out fo' broken rail or crossin proteczzle not functionin. Aytee?

If there were severe slippery conditions at that location on that day, then there could be mitigating circumstances, however, it is still the responsibility of the engineer. If the engineer had been advised prior to his arrival at that location, or if he should have been aware of slippery conditions at that location (if that stretch of track is always bad during leaf season) then he has no real mitigating circumstances as he was aware of the condition coming into it.

Having said that, there is much more involved here than just allowing your train to pass the signal. How fast was he going when he first applied the brake to stop at the signal? How far was he from the signal when he first applied the brake? Did he try to stop the train by placing the brakes in emergency? How severe were the slippery conditions? Did the wheel slide system on the train operate excessively or improperly? If the engineer ran right up on the signal at 20 or 15 mph (whatever the ASC allows if this is ASC territory) and then applied the brake at the last second, not allowing for the slippery conditions, then he is certainly guilty of, at least, very poor judgement. If, however, he was approaching the signal slowly and cautiously, trying to take into account the slippery conditions, and the wheel slide system on the train overacted, allowing too much brake effort to be released too often for too long a time, it may have been almost impossible for him to stop. I have had trains where I approached a station on almost level track, during leaf season, at 7 mph, intending to stop, and feeling the train slowing sufficiently to stop properly in the station. Just about the east end of the platform, the wheel slip on the 3 car train started overacting, and the train slid 10 cars past the five car platform. It would have gone farther had I not put in the train in emergency, which disables the wheel slide, although sliding wheels will not stop as well as turning wheels.

My point in all this? Yes the engineer is responsible for the safe operation of his train, but sometimes situations arise that prevent even the best of us from looking like some Joe Newkid running a train for the first time.

Sirsonic, I could not have said it better.

As hard as it is for some to believe, all this is taken into account when discipline is considered. This is an example of how the event recorder data can help a good employee. Sometimes, no matter what the rules, the downloaded information shows that the employee operated with such care that no reasonable railroader could ever find fault with anything he did.

Unfortunately displine depends more on one's previous offenses and the direction of the political wind, but the hard data does figure into it to a great degree.

Clem

I know what you mean about Bayside. I was on a train once heading inbound, watching out the RFW. We came over the hill and right away I knew we were not going to stop anywhere close to the mark. We shot right past the 10 and 12 car marks. Overall, I think we overshot by 5 cars. I do feel though that in that particular case, the engineer was going a bit too fast considering the slip slide conditions that he had been warned of by 204 prior to departure from PW. I mean, we were really moving as we came over the hill and we still doing a pretty good clip as we entered the first few feet of the station.

He also overshot Flushing by one car, but I don't blame him for that one. You could feel the train slide right through.

NIMBY,

Bayside is a particularly bad place to permit a train to slide. Operating west under a 30 code, encountering a 15 code at the signal bridge, its quite possible to slide into the station, where one would not want to encounter another train loading passengers.

You said:

I do feel though that in that particular case, the engineer was going a bit too fast considering the slip slide conditions that he had been warned of by 204 prior

Be careful about judging an engineer's actions. Remember that there is a very delicate mix of having to maintain the schedule and handle the train safely. It's a skill that comes with time and experience. When we examine event recorder data after such an incident, there's always a very experienced engine service supervisor who we rely on to determine if the engineer's actions were reasonable, prudent or typical.

Even though we don't drive a car at 55 MPH in a snowstorm, we often learn the hard way that even 30 was too fast.

To be quite honest, every post-incident investigation I've gone into with even the best engineers have revealed errors in judgement. The difference between the experienced and the inexperienced is that the experienced ones take responsibility while the newer employees try to blame someone or something other than their actions.

C

Peanuts feels that the engineer shouldnt be responsible. He is right. Since the conductor is in charge of the train, he must determine if the engineer drove the train the right way. Afterall the conductor has to decide what discipline he will give his crew.

CEDARHURST BROCK
Certified Professional Railfan
NARP Life Member

First off, what I said was not meant as disrespect... I respect all of my fellow railroaders, we all have our own jobs and duties which I hope we all perform to the best of our knowledge day in and day out.

Secondly, I am out there every day and know how bad it is in between Valley and Lynbrook, you dont think I am scared going around those curves in the morning? I approach that home signal EVERYDAY under 15 miles an hour, assuming that signal is at STOP until I get there and see it. And, even at that speed you are still sliding with a little brake on. Its a very dangerous location. Thats the way I choose to do it, would I have done things different that morning-I dont know, and I could never comment on that.

As a point, as an engineer, I am responsible for the control of my train. I try to do that to the best of my abilities day in and day out, but sometimes the control is taken out of your hands. When I was in training I was always taught if you do what you are supposed to be doing, the black box is your friend. Only once has a black box been downloaded in front of me, when I had my fatality, and I knew when I saw it downloaded I did everything I needed to do that night. I would hope, the box is an asset for my other 'brother'.

Also, trains sometimes take control away from an engineer as well. As trainees we were taught to place the master controller in MAX BRAKE when experencing slip slide and try to recover. I have been on M-1 and M-3's that have gone into emergency and contiuned to slide and pick up speed, am I really in control anymore once the train goes into emergency? No I am at the mercy of the train. I also had the pleasure of being on M-7's at Great Neck where I was doing 20 MPH at the top of the hill, that just kept sliding and sliding and picking up speed going down the hill, did I not have proper control of my train before the train took control away from me? Honestly, its scary out there.

As an engineer, the most important thing I have is the little green card which hangs around my neck, and protecting it is my job. Sometimes, its better to make your train 8 minutes late then risk losing your certification. I may take grief for a delay or there are days where you are told things that are so wrong that you have to be the one to stand up for yourself and your crew, but at least I know I am going home in service. And at the same time the 4000 people that were on my 4 trains and the crew I had to work with that day arrived to where they are going safely as well.

I was once told a late train is a safe train, maybe at this time of the season its the proper saying this time of year?

Interesting how you do not hear of this that often on NJT, MNRR, etc. I understand that 3 seperate trains overshot three different stations this evening. No disrespect of course.

Listening to the scanner the last few days and nights, it sounds like the LIRR is having an especially bad season re: slip-slide problems. I've been hearing Divide Tower telling each crew about system-wide slip-slide and to be aware of Special Instruction 100M and/or 100W. Can someone tell us interested railfans what those instructions are about? Do they pertain to slip-slide issues?

i am very interested in what is being spoke of here, since i am a regular daily commuter on the railroad. DOT my guess is that since the guys on mnrr and njt are professional engineers they would fair better than the motormen on the lirr. whats the difference between a motorman and an engineer anyway?
brock i was wondering since the conductor disciplines the motorman for not driving the train properly, what will happen to this conductor now for letting this happen? i always thought the conductor drove the train too and if not driving, collected fares. how interesting this site is. you learn so much.
mr. peanuts what is the green card that the motorman wears around his/her neck? i see you mentioned that.

tonight i had to get off the 7 local cause it was gonna go express after woodside. I had my headphones on and my music slightly loud. I heard a muffled, roarm then rumble, thinking it was a plane on approach to LGA. I saw nothing, I looked down and saw a M7 heading through the express track, sounding like it was dragging a 747 down the ROW... I've never heard an m1 or 3 do that.