Breaking News & Slip-slide conditions

2 nights ago they were running some serious slime train action on WM Lead, and rockaway Via valley stream. also that night and the next i herd some M7s pounding the hell outa the WM line. musta had some sliding down the grade where the tracks go to grade level. my house is 4 blocks west of the branch and i herd it and felt some tremmers, that train also had some real bad flatspots that i still herd when the train made westwood.

That was probably flat wheels that you heard, de402.

Clem:
"Remember that there is a very delicate mix of having to maintain the schedule and handle the train safely."

That's why I said I don't blame him for overshooting Flushing.


As for LIRR vs NJT/MN engineers(and yes, they are ALL engineers. Motormen is usually reserved for INTRA-city services, like subways), they are all professionals. Some people for each company are better than the others, but for the most part, the engineers are all the same. Actually, LIRR is a more memory intensive railroad to work for. LIRR requires engineers(and c/rs I believe) to memorize all the interlockings and such. With MN, all you have to remember for the most part are the key interlockings, like CP112.

I haven't rode an M7 for sometime, but I did ride M1/3 trains. The M3 train from Hempstead which I rode seemed to ride just fine. The M1 car I rode (CCM 9472) had some bad flats on it which made the train bump a little bit. An M7 train which stopped at Massapequa Park also had some bad flats. While I do find it a bit puzzling that the brand new M7s have bad flats, I just accept the fact the any railcar can get flat spots in the fall, whether they are ancient or brand new.

History question for the old guys:

Does anyone recall how engineeers (their run sheet called them Motormen back then) handled slippery rail in the MP-54's? How 'bout the Zip cars when they were MU's?

I suspect they "plugged" the controller, reversing the motors, which would attempt to burn through the muck, make lots of sparks, set fires and avoid flats.

The M-1/3/7 can't reverse when you're moving.

Anyone shed some light on this?

Clem

Greetings All,
Prior to the installation of the the wheel truing machine at Morris Park, the wheels were ground on the car-loco in the roundhouse on grinder track which was the last track next to the "patio". This machine incorperated a large set of grinding wheels that were contured to the profile of the wheel tread. The finish was really nice and runout was fairly close. The other means was off car and was done in the wheel shop by the use of wheel lathes. I believe there are some pictures of both operations in Steel Rails to the Sunrise.

KRO52

If an engineer overshoots a platform by say 2-6 cars on a 10 car consist, due to slip slide conditions is he aloud to get an order alowing him to reverse into that station? or they just not open the lead cars and let every one walk back takeing more time.

NIMBYkiller wrote:That was probably flat wheels that you heard, de402.

Clem:
"Remember that there is a very delicate mix of having to maintain the schedule and handle the train safely."

That's why I said I don't blame him for overshooting Flushing.


As for LIRR vs NJT/MN engineers(and yes, they are ALL engineers. Motormen is usually reserved for INTRA-city services, like subways), they are all professionals. Some people for each company are better than the others, but for the most part, the engineers are all the same. Actually, LIRR is a more memory intensive railroad to work for. LIRR requires engineers(and c/rs I believe) to memorize all the interlockings and such. With MN, all you have to remember for the most part are the key interlockings, like CP112.

You are absolutely incorrect on this one. I worked for Metro-North a few
years back and an engineer not only had to know everything in the
employee timetable but had to know the exact layout of every interlocking
and control point, what they could do and could not do at every one.
They are also required to know the name of every grade crossing, signal
location etc.
There was a very intensive written examination and you could not get
much wrong in order to qualify.
You should not be talking about things that you don't know about.
Noel Weaver

<i.Does anyone recall how engineeers (their run sheet called them Motormen back then) handled slippery rail in the MP-54's? How 'bout the Zip cars when they were MU's?</i>

Nope. Those cars didn't have a very high braking rate, though. They did'nt accelerate much either - the 'high rate' mod for the '72s was 1.5mph/s I think. The 'high' balance speed got you up from 67 to 77mph.

<i>I suspect they "plugged" the controller, reversing the motors, which would attempt to burn through the muck, make lots of sparks, set fires and avoid flats.</i>

They might have tried, but likely the most this would do is pop the main fuse and or blow the motors. I've heard stories that it *was* done on the LIRR, but also realize on a '54 that reversing requires passing through the emergency position on the controller, which *can* be done (says PRR's book) but *can* trigger an e brake application. At low low speeds, a blip into switching might have been ok....

More likely, they just power braked, which the controller WOULD allow and would at most trip the overload if they loaded things down too much.

I should point out that the GE version of the Metroliner *did* flip the motors into reverse durring braking - the vastly superior control that the phase angle system gave allowed them to do this without issues (well, no more than anything else on those cars). They could brake 'on the motor' to near 0mph. AFAIK, they are the only DC traction MUs ever built in the US that could.

Older MU cars used cast brake shoes, they burned the leaf residue off very nice.
todays Hi friction composition shoe just leaves the leafs on rail and actually causes a lot of the problems

Usually when we blow a station due to the leaves, we open any doors that are still on the platform, load the train and get out of town. Too time consuming and not practical to get a train order to back up. If we completely blow a station, we simply let the passengers off at the next station, and arrange for the next train going in the oppostie direction to pick up the passengers.

Noel, take it easy Nimby is a teenager and I seriously doubt he had any intention to undermine or minimize anything that you guys on MNCR,NJT or any other railroad in the World, had to do to qualify. I met him and can honestly say he does not seem like the sort that would think that way.

I am an LIRR Engineer or Motorman if anyone takes offence to me calling myself an Engineer, and I think Nimby was simply defending us. That's all. By the way, I find your posts interesting!

Form 19 wrote:Noel, take it easy Nimby is a teenager and I seriously doubt he had any intention to undermine or minimize anything that you guys on MNCR,NJT or any other railroad in the World, had to do to qualify. I met him and can honestly say he does not seem like the sort that would think that way.

I am an LIRR Engineer or Motorman if anyone takes offence to me calling myself an Engineer, and I think Nimby was simply defending us. That's all. By the way, I find your posts interesting!

OK

Thanks

Noel Weaver

From one of the "old guys." . Indeed, the enginemen used "power-braking' or "sanding" on the MP-54's and MP-70 double-deckers. Yes, there was a lot of heat generated, relatively speaking, by the friction of the brake shoes on the wheels. I can't recall instances of sliding thru stations and blocks back then, although, a slippery rail is a slippery rail.

I've been following this thread and was reluctant to comment - I am not familiar with the MP-72, MP-75, M1/3/7 cars. The MP-54's and MP-70's had what was called electro-pneumatic air brake systems. I am not at all familiar with the controls on the present-day equipment (I need to get back to L.I.).

The MP-70 double-deckers actually acelerated rather well and the braking was much better than the '54's. I remember a cab ride soon after they went into service - after clearing Springfield Gardens (eastbound), the engineman (Andy Post - long ago deceased) opened 'er up. As we approached Lynnbrook at MAS, I thought this was not a scheduled stop. Old Andy started a brake application and stopped right at the "D10" marker - smooth as silk.

I notice, as I see photos taken on the L.I.R.R. ROW, there are a lot more trees and vegatation growth on that ROW. They weren't there in "ancient times,." at least not in as close proximatety. This must surely play a role in leaf problems as I read them here - many more trees dropping leaves.

I'll see if I can get some rememberances from retired engineer Mark Smith - maybe Dave Keller can ask Mark as well.

I believe my recollections are correct.

DutchRailnut wrote:Older MU cars used cast brake shoes, they burned the leaf residue off very nice.
todays Hi friction composition shoe just leaves the leafs on rail and actually causes a lot of the problems

Why can't today's MU cars use cast iron brake shoes anymore?

Higher labor cost and Noiuse abatement rules.
The Cast shoes did not last as long as composition shoes and they squeel.