Breaking News & Slip-slide conditions

Ah, Noel,

You got me... I should have written that differently. Permit me to correct myself: While an inexperienced or unconcerned engineer can cause or increase the amount of sliding and flat wheels, much of the sliding is unavoidable even by the best of men operating in a judicious manner.

This, as you say is because of equipment limitations as well as speed control reactions which dictate certain brake applications that may introduce the sliding. Sometimes, though experience, and engineer can manipulate his equipment to avoid or reduce the slide. Other times, the wheels "pick up" and the whole thing is outside of the engineer's control.

There's nothing more humiliating to a good engineer than to be at the head end of a train full of people that "picks up" and slides eight cars through a station. It's no fun listening to the names these passengers call you as they have to walk back nine cars to get off.

Some equipment is more prone to sliding than others, and there are differences between cars in the same fleet. This also frustrates many an engineer. You simply don't know what to expect.

The worst condition seems to be when crushed leaves mix with very light moisture, such as dew or a light drizzle. Sometimes the action can be truly unpredictable.

How's that Noel? Friends again?

Oh yes, here on the Long Island they are all engineers and they prefer to be called such. However, when an engineer operates a motor, he is performing the duties of a motorman. For the sake of my continued respected friendships with such folk though, I must state that regardless of what he operates, whether it is a steam engine or a bicycle, he's always an engineer.

Make sense?

Clem

Frank, it most certainly is related greatly to the design of the cars.

NIMBYkiller wrote:Frank, it most certainly is related greatly to the design of the cars.

How?

Clem wrote:Ah, Noel,

You got me... I should have written that differently. Permit me to correct myself: While an inexperienced or unconcerned engineer can cause or increase the amount of sliding and flat wheels, much of the sliding is unavoidable even by the best of men operating in a judicious manner.

This, as you say is because of equipment limitations as well as speed control reactions which dictate certain brake applications that may introduce the sliding. Sometimes, though experience, and engineer can manipulate his equipment to avoid or reduce the slide. Other times, the wheels "pick up" and the whole thing is outside of the engineer's control.

There's nothing more humiliating to a good engineer than to be at the head end of a train full of people that "picks up" and slides eight cars through a station. It's no fun listening to the names these passengers call you as they have to walk back nine cars to get off.

Some equipment is more prone to sliding than others, and there are differences between cars in the same fleet. This also frustrates many an engineer. You simply don't know what to expect.

The worst condition seems to be when crushed leaves mix with very light moisture, such as dew or a light drizzle. Sometimes the action can be truly unpredictable.

How's that Noel? Friends again?

Oh yes, here on the Long Island they are all engineers and they prefer to be called such. However, when an engineer operates a motor, he is performing the duties of a motorman. For the sake of my continued respected friendships with such folk though, I must state that regardless of what he operates, whether it is a steam engine or a bicycle, he's always an engineer.

Make sense?

Clem

YES, thanks. I knew you did not really mean what you said.
I have not run a train for Metro-North since late 1987 when I elected to
move up-state and return to Conrail. I suspect that some of the
conditions that I encountered with Metro-North still are the same while
others have changed at least to some degree.
Noel Weaver

I am forced to disagree with ith Clem also. Most of the time there is nothing the Engineer can do about the "slipslide" caused by leaves on the tracks. Most of the LIRR is automatic block signal system now, and an Engineer can get caught by a speed controll flip at any time.
Also, the term "MotorMan" or "Motormen" is usually used as a putdown these days. I know it was originaly used in the crew books to designate if the job was an electric, or motor job, or a steam job, but now it is usually used as a insult. The LIRR engineers are qualified on all diesel equipment, as well as all electric equipment. they are Locomotive engineers, not Motormen.

Frank, when the ENTIRE fleet of a certain car has a problem that only a portion of the other types of fleets have, and especially when the type of car that has the fleetwide problem is brand new, any moron could tell you it's a design flaw. Yes, I believe there is a certain degree of the engineers not being used to the M7s braking system(which I believe is a little more touchy than the M1/M3 systems, or is it that they don't decelerate as fast as the M1/M3(which would make sense given their weight)), but the design of the trains still has a lot to do with their problems.

Maybe I'm missing something here but doesn't all passenger equipment have the automotive equivalent of antilock brakes? At least that's what I read in my transportation engineering course in college some 22 years ago. I'm shocked that the M7's don't have a more sophisticated braking system. When using dynamics especially it seems like the slip problem should be almost trivial to control since it basically involves detecting the slightest onset of wheel slide, and then lowered the braking force to eliminate the slide, or perhaps just maintaining a constant slip ratio of a few percent as is done with AC locomotives. Granted, there will certainly be far less braking force with leaves on the track, but there is zero reason nowadays with today's sophisticated control systems for a train to lock its wheels, especially one where every axle has dynamic braking. There's good safety reasons for doing it this way also. Once the wheel locks as everyone knows the train decelerates a lot slower, except in Hollywood movies.

Hey LirrConductor I guess us motormen are a bunch of useless morons right? Gee, maybe I should just get minimum wage for operating trains while you guys could make an extra 20$/hr . The arrogance is why I and a bunch of my fellow employees don't like you guys.

I couldn't help but laugh when I read in another thread that assistant conductors are being given classes to qualify as conductors. Classes?? I thought the LIRR only hires the most brilliant?I guess they have to be taught to study. I'm taking a promotion exam for the title of Train Dispatcher in a month. The TA isn't giving any prep classes for the exam; not that I need the classes. It looks like the TA is looking for the cream of the crop.


BTW, you'll be working with at least two TA motormen soon. I tried getting on, but my Catholic school upbringing must've made me overqualified. Gee, if only I went to York College.

He's saying that describing LIRR engineers as motormen is GENERALLY looked upon as a put down. It's not saying that motormen, such as those that work for NYCT, are lower than LIRR motormen. He's just stating a general term and it's meaning ON THE LIRR.

Also, these days, engineer is used more for commuter and intercity train operators, while motorman is used more for subway type(and I guess light rail) train operators.

Yanks rule, I did not mean to offend Transit workers, in fact you were not even brought up in the conversation. The point was not to demean Transit workers. It is a simple fact on the LIRR to call an Engineer a "motorman" is considered an insult. Engineers on the LIRR have to go through a training program on Locomotives, and electric equipment. They have to be able to troubleshoot equipment problems to move disabled trains. They have to be qualified on the entire LIRR system, and know the physical Layout of the whole system. Say for example an engineer has a 25 car stone train, and is told to put it in the clear at WH. Will that train fit at WH? No disrespect to you, but I know for a fact the subway signal system is not as complicated as the Railroads. For the most part you guys have red yellow and green. We have over 80 different signals we have to know. When was the last time you operated a 60 car train? What do you know about letting out enough slack so the cars dont bang apart or together? There is a lot more involved in being an Engineer. The other day, I saw an Engineer come in on his own time to operate a diesel train, because he had not operated one in awhile, and wanted to keep sharp on the equipment. So if you are envious of LIRR workers that is your problem, not mine. I am not envious of you. By the way, there are children starting school next year, who never saw the Yankees win a world series. So the yankees don't rule anything...

jtr1962 wrote:Maybe I'm missing something here but doesn't all passenger equipment have the automotive equivalent of antilock brakes? At least that's what I read in my transportation engineering course in college some 22 years ago. I'm shocked that the M7's don't have a more sophisticated braking system. When using dynamics especially it seems like the slip problem should be almost trivial to control since it basically involves detecting the slightest onset of wheel slide, and then lowered the braking force to eliminate the slide, or perhaps just maintaining a constant slip ratio of a few percent as is done with AC locomotives. Granted, there will certainly be far less braking force with leaves on the track, but there is zero reason nowadays with today's sophisticated control systems for a train to lock its wheels, especially one where every axle has dynamic braking. There's good safety reasons for doing it this way also. Once the wheel locks as everyone knows the train decelerates a lot slower, except in Hollywood movies.

Is it possible for MU's to have some kind of ABS system installed?

The M-1's and M-3's as well as the M-7's all have a form of ABS. When it comes to leaves on the tracks, the ABS senses the wheels locking up, and then tries to compensate by releasing and applying the brakes. It actually takes longer to stop with the ABS. I will say it seems easier to controll an m-7 then an m-1/m-3. After a heavy rain, or wind storm this time of year, it is incredible how hard it is to stop sometimes. Over the years, I have been on trains that have blown stations many times. The really tough stations have been Bayside, because it is downhill coming into the station from both directions, Great Neck comming west downhill into the station, and westwood going east. It is a real problem this time of year, and you have to be on your toes, because sooner or later there will be a train with doors off the platform.

Just to give a sense of what sliding wheels can do, this morning (Monday), a rush hour Long Beach train bound for New York slid past Valley's home signal -- by ten car lengths.

The signal displayed stop and thus the speed control dropped from a 40 code to a 15 as the train approached. The train was probably doing about 40. The engineer applied brake in this notorious area known for wet leaves, the wheels picked up and the train slid all the way into the interlocking.

Yes, the engineer, (who was operating the motors from the motorman's cab) will be held responsible. He was warned of slippery conditions on the branch. While you are expected to anticipate these problems, they can sneak up on you and no two trains respond in the same way.

In this case the cars were M-1's. Conventional thinking is that the engineer must control his train.

Clem

What happens to the Engineer in this case, does he get a warning or a suspension for passing the signal?

Clem, if you think its easy to control a train that doesnt want to be controlled come on out on the road. I can promise you wont do a better job then the 400 engineers that are out on the road EVERYDAY!