Amfleet Disposition Discussion Thread

[RandallW]

For emergency operations, busses offer a flexibility rail will never be able to match.
Evacuating by train would require evacuation to the train and then transportation from the train to shelters. This is not a problem with busses--they can go directly from collection points with mobility-impaired populations and take those people directly to shelters, while trains would need busses at both ends of the journey. The US charter bus fleet is large and mostly continuously in use, so a large fleet already prepared and equipped for journeys to and from disparate locations exists and because it is in regular use, the only costs to governments are during the crisis.

[STrRedWolf]

For emergency operations, busses offer a flexibility rail will never be able to match.
Evacuating by train would require evacuation to the train and then transportation from the train to shelters. This is not a problem with busses--they can go directly from collection points with mobility-impaired populations and take those people directly to shelters, while trains would need busses at both ends of the journey. The US charter bus fleet is large and mostly continuously in use, so a large fleet already prepared and equipped for journeys to and from disparate locations exists and because it is in regular use, the only costs to governments are during the crisis.

Well just remember there's a difference in evacuation before a storm and evacuation during/after a storm. If you know the emergency is coming and can get folks out of the way en mass, you employ buses *AND* trains *AND* planes *AND* anything else you can get your hands on. During/after, you're best bet is buses, because people can't wait. See Hurricane Katrina for that.

[eolesen]

Paging drug tests on aisle one, please....

There's no way "surge" cars get from a desert staging point to the East Coast in less than four or five days. Nor are people going to wait four or five days to be evacuated. They'll be leaving on their own wheels.

The real solution is..... school buses, of which there are no shortages anywhere in the US.

They can easily move people on short notice, they can detour around blockages and pick up/drop off in a variety of locations.

Driving a school bus might require a CDL, but in a real emergency requiring mass evacuations, I seriously doubt anybody's going to be checking that documentation very closely.

Let's just stop with the surge emergency fleet fantasy already.

[STrRedWolf]

Paging drug tests on aisle one, please....

There's no way "surge" cars get from a desert staging point to the East Coast in less than four or five days. Nor are people going to wait four or five days to be evacuated. They'll be leaving on their own wheels.

The real solution is..... school buses, of which there are no shortages anywhere in the US.

They can easily move people on short notice, they can detour around blockages and pick up/drop off in a variety of locations.

Driving a school bus might require a CDL, but in a real emergency requiring mass evacuations, I seriously doubt anybody's going to be checking that documentation very closely.

Let's just stop with the surge emergency fleet fantasy already.

I cover that with "anything you can get your hands on".

I wonder if that kid who grabbed a bus after Katrina, filled it with people, and headed to Houston got out of trouble for it...

[ExCon90]

In any event he didn't need to be route qualified or have a pilot ...

[STrRedWolf]

In any event he didn't need to be route qualified or have a pilot ...

Found the BuzzFeed article on the kid, Jabbar Gibson. He didn't get in trouble for the rescue using a school bus (in fact, it's a miracle the bus that needed repairs even made it). However, his past history repeated itself, and from what I can tell, he's back in jail on drug convictions.

[rcthompson04]

I was on a Keystone being led by a Metroliner control car tonight that was delayed about 10 minutes heading west out of Philadelphia. The train was delayed as maintenance had to bag a piece of metal on the front of the control car back into place. It hit a deer earlier heading towards New York.

[west point]

Amtrak best forget about disposing of any Amfleets and instead full speed ahead restoring all to passenger worthy status. The AX-2 fiasco is getting worse with first the OIG report & 2nd the announcement of Alstom not doing well. Some AX-1 parts not available + 4 being cannibalized. If AM-2s start having to become fleet for some future Metroliner - 3s then forget any national expansion.

Amtrak may have to scramble to meet demand. Just too many unknowns. Do not count this post as any prediction. But Amtrak best plan for the worse and hope for something somewhat better.

[John_Perkowski]

Some commentary on railroad manufacturing…

100 plus years ago, the Pullman Company built a single steel car. They built it by hand. Railcar architects and engineers were on the factory floor as it was built. From that experiment, Pullman figured out how to build steel cars, and they developed the mass production techniques for the steel era.

90 years ago or so, Pullman built an all aluminum car, GEORGE M PULLMAN. Concurrently, they took in an order from Union Pacific and Budd took in an order from the Burlington. Those three one offs, along with the ATSF sleeper FORWARD, were the learning beds for the Streamliner era. By 1937, mass production of streamline railcars was happening at at least two of the three major manufacturers.

Fast forward to today. Amtrak had a proven design in Acela. They could have provided the plans and hit the “reorder” button. They could have even ordered additional cars per train set. Instead, they went one off. They and their manufacturer are having challenges getting the equipment into service. Because Amtrak won’t pay progress payments, their manufacturer is flirting with bankruptcy.

It seems to me AMTRAK corporate doesn’t do the best job making best practice procurement decisions.

[RandallW]

Don't forget that "proven design" is too wide to use it's tilting capabilities to the designed specification, meaning that planned route speeds have never been met, the entire fleet was taken out of service (I think) 3 times in the first 3 years of operation and both Amtrak and Bombardier sued each other over it. There's no surprise they didn't just order more.

[Tadman]

Amtrak best forget about disposing of any Amfleets and instead full speed ahead restoring all to passenger worthy status. The AX-2 fiasco is getting worse with first the OIG report & 2nd the announcement of Alstom not doing well. Some AX-1 parts not available + 4 being cannibalized.

Agree, and yet somehow Amfleets and Horizons and Superliner are showing up at the Saint Louis PV hub by Union Station and in bloody Mexico on the new Interoceanico Railway. If you really want your jaw to drop, search for some of those photos - the cream of the crop of 1970's HST's in England and USA are side-by-side in the Yucatan. That being the British 43-class HST125 set and the Amfleet.

I belong to a similar board concerning UK trains and we all thought it was a joke that HST125's were being loaded aboard ships and someone said "they're going to Mexico". Turns out they are indeed in Mexico.

But why are we selling these cars off when there is no hope of having a running fleet of replacements this year or next? This is mismanagemenet of historic proportions.

It seems to me AMTRAK corporate doesn’t do the best job making best practice procurement decisions.

They do a really bad job. Awful.





And this is a pic i took two weeks ago of the F59 they bought, waiting on the train ferry at Mobile Docks.

[ConstanceR46]

To be fair, those amfleets had been sold to a preservation outfit before the AX-2's problems became apparent

[west point]

Amtrak management appears that it does not learn from procurement problems of rolling stock. Over ,& over& over & over & over there has been major delays for equipment delays both before acceptance or even after. V-2s, AX-1s, E-60s, Nippon, HHPs, Siemens passenger cars, and now Alstom.

Now if the problems with the AX-2 are not solved till say 2026 at the outside every Amfleet that can be made passenger worthy needs to be! That is all within a year not just the few so far noted in FY2024. If that s date possible for the AX-2s! Possible but not probable but plan for the worse and hope for better. Whereas Amtrak management has shown it capable of only planning for the best! Then the scramble to adapt!

[BandA]

The MBB (Messerschmitt Bölkow Blohm) cars that the MBTA leased to CTDOT should be available soon, lol. I believe they have new HP toilets and fresh Bondo.

[John_Perkowski]

Now if the problems with the AX-2 are not solved till say 2026 at the outside every Amfleet that can be made passenger worthy needs to be! That is all within a year not just the few so far noted in FY2024.

I guess it’s time to un retire my favorite political saying…

218+51+1=funding

Right now, getting 218 out of the House? Please tell me your hallucinogens, I need some. The Republicans can’t even find a leader, let alone make a substantive decision. The odds of increasing Amtrak’s 2024 subsidy, imo, are slim and almost none.