East End Service: Greenport Scoot, Montauk Line, Etc.

krapug wrote:

PS Yes to some this is an "rural" area, BUT first it's not that rural, and second this is an unique rural area in that we have many second home owners fron NYC and in-island, many local residents who make regular trip to NYC and a strong vinticulture industry whose managers are always going to and from NYC for meetings, promotional seminars etc. Many of these people wind up driving to Ronkonkoma for train service which is just plain wrong.

Exactly. It's the chicken and egg scenario. They claim low ridership as the reason the service is so bad. Well, the service is almost non-existent, so ridership is of course low. How can there be any ridership with the ridiculous one or two trains a day? People are forced to drive to overcrowded Ronkonkoma. Serivce can easily be on the level of "Speonk to Patchogue" on the line between Ronkonkoma and Riverhead. And service between Greenport and RIverhead should be increased to the levels they have between Speonk and Montauk.
With all the new devopment in Manorville and Yaphank, and the past development in the 70's and 80's in Medord and Holtsville, this line needs to come out of the 50's and land into the 2000's! RIverhead is exploding with development both redsidential and commercial, so the demand is there. "If the run it, they will come".

I agree, how can one use a service that is not redaly available when needed. not everyone can work there lives around the railroads current scedual between KO&Greenport. I think that it is very clear that if they increase the service the paying commuters/plain passengers will just appear outa knowhere.

the same is true with a rebuilt CRR. it is very clear theat many pple espacily the NIMBY's will be irately pissed but when they realise the potential (witch most will realise quickly) they will stop being babies and grow a sack, and respect the much needed and better service.

My idea it as follows.
Clonton rd. ----> Bethpage. diesel serviced buy the green poort scoot witch will run more times p/day. when the potential it realise. then either run longer trains (DE, 4 cars) or eletrify the secondary. but still keep the inceased service east of KO

"U build it, they come"

RRChef, You mentioned some very interesting things about the near-abandonment of the Riverhead to Greenport branch.
Here too, on the Cape, we were caught off guard when the state improved the rail stations in the 1980's when seasonal passenger service was running.
In the late eighties, the state was forced to discontinue the service on account of the budget crisis. since then, the anti-rail governors who followed Mike Dukakis ignored the wishes of the local populace by refusing to restore the rail service that Mr. Dukakis worked so hard to bring back during his governorship. Instead providing a plethora of excuses to avoid the issue.
We are still fighting today, and part of the rail line. (the Falmouth Branch) is slated to become a bike path despite the new rail platform at Falmouth station that has never seen a train. This is a result of an anti-rail state representative, and also a former rep who pretended to be for rail service, and now supports a highway project which would encourage more auto use.
Although you have the advantage of the fact that your Greenport Branch still has rail service. Not the best frequency, I grant you, but some is better than none.
It will probably be, if not easier, less difficult to improve rail service on your Greenport line as opposed to getting new rail service from a standing start.
The bottom line people, is don't let them take away the few trains you have. By doing this, you have the groundwork to fight the good fight for better service.
'Nuff said for now. Use the force and press on!!

A parallel can be drawn between the LIRR's Greenport branch and Metro-North's line from Suffern to Port Jervis. Both termini are roughly the same distance from New York City and both areas have experienced growth in population. Yet Metro-North saw fit to increase service on the Port Jervis line from two weekday RTs and one Saturday RT in the 1970s to the current level of ten RTs on weekdays and seven on weekends. At the same time, LIRR held to two RTs to Greenport and reduced the quality of service by requiring passengers to change at Ronkonkoma (done before eletrification was extended) instead of Greenport.

When the extra Fri. night train arrives at Greenport (6:46 PM)
does it take the main track, or track #2?
What time does this train leave?

Thanx!

njgrptfan wrote:When the extra Fri. night train arrives at Greenport (6:46 PM)
does it take the main track, or track #2?
What time does this train leave?

Thanx!

Normally the Friday extra pulls into the station on Track 2 (the track that faces North), and waits until the regular weekday trains arrives.
After the other train arrives the extra usually departs Greenport around 8:30 for a dead run west.

Here is something I'm sure you all will find a bit interesting and funny.

I'm not sure if anyone remembers, but on the old message board last year in our discussion of Greenport station someone posted that they recall a hot dog/lunch truck that would park every day at the station in the late summer/fall, back in the late 80's and some of the 90's.

Well I just bought a bottle of wine from the Peconic Bay Winery in Cutchogue, and lo and behold there is the pic of the truck with the station in the background!!

They are using pictures of local North Fork scenes on some of their bottles.
This pic is on the "Local Flavor Red" bottle. The picture is dated 1988, and it's mainly of the truck, but if you look closely at the pic, you can see at the top and on the sides, the station in the background. I immediately recoginized the big windows. This was when they were all boarded up and painted grey and the station was painted that horrible RED back in the 80's before the renovation.(remember that?)

I can't tell if it's shot from the front of the building or on the track side.
If you get a chance, check it out!

njgrptfan

Hello all,

njgrptfan, that Hot Dog vendor was working there until 1991 or 1992. I started working for the Shelter Island Ferry in 1990 and had a few dogs there myself. The kitchen crew were a bunch of characters, real Ma and Pa Kettle types. I haven't seen the bottle of wine yet but the thought sure brings back memories.

I put the following post up last month on the "LIRR branch abandonment thread" and received only three or four comments regarding my theory. I'm posting it again here as the earlier discussion in THIS thread lends to it. There might be some readers here who would like to chew it up and spit it out. I still think it may be a plan in teh Halls of Albany.

Read on:

Let me float another idea concerning the MTA’s closing of branches, specifically the Mainline from Ronkonkoma to Greenport. My brain spasm came about after hearing a morning radio statement by NYS Assemblyman Fred Thiele on WLNG-FM a few weeks ago. He has introduced into Legislative Committee a bill that would investigate/create a Transit Authority in Suffolk County to operate the rail service between KO and Greenport. Tell me if this makes sense to you.

The MTA and the New York State Legislature know that population, (and ridership), is increasing along the North Shore through Riverhead and the North Fork. They know there has been a call and speculation for a transportation hub to be built at the Calverton Property in Riverhead Township. They hear people and local government calling for more frequent train service on the East End. They know all the crossing gate switches are too close to the grade crossings and need to be moved to increase the legal speed limit for trains on the Mainline – and increased ridership will demand faster trains, (like their South Shore Brethren). And finally, adding more trains to the LIRR Mainline timetable means more man/woman power and more wear and tear on the limited equipment available.

What do these five points all have in common? They all cost a bundle of money – well into the future.

A Transit Authority in Suffolk County, set up to oversee “The Mainline East of Ronkonkoma”, might be a long-term financially prudent answer to these “Big Five.” The “County” could privatize the maintenance and operation of the Mainline by hiring independent contractors. (Much like they do with the Suffolk County Transit Buses.) I doubt the new “contractors” would be Unionized - or if so would have weaker contracts in place - wages for engineers, conductors and MOW workers might be lower than LIRR wages, the MTA and the State saves! I bet there would be Federal ISTEA incentives to buy new RDC type railcars, hi-rail trucks for MOW, cranes, infrastructure, buildings, crossing switch moves, etc. A new Transit Authority in Suffolk County might be favored in the Federal ISTEA bidding over the old MTA. At the very least, a new Transit Authority, starting out with little or no debt and a large and growing-larger tax base, might get a very favorable bond rating for financing Mainline needs. The new Authority can negotiate with the NYA and allow continued freight service to the North Fork. The MTA benefits by getting Mainline power and cars off the East End and back into its equipment pool. The Unionized men and women covering runs out to Greenport are now distributed into the larger system, the MTA can ease up on hiring for a few months – maybe.

The unique character of “The Mainline East of Ronkonkoma” is once again in the spotlight. It is Manual Block Territory, no ATC, NORAC might rule in the future; the population base is growing and making demands; it’s a dead-end branch that might do nothing in the next 15 – 20 years or it might explode with ridership, what a gamble, what a liability for an already strapped MTA. If Suffolk County owns and operates the Mainline, might they make it easier for RMLI #39 to run between Riverhead and Greenport? Do you too, gentle reader, think this might be a Grand Experiment that has already been decided in Albany’s hallowed halls? I think this is going to be something interesting to watch.

de Don, n2qhvRMLI

It's nice to see service has improved on the main line east of KO since the days that I haunted it. Lets see, change at Hicksville, then a change at KO. One car, one locomotive. Robert Emery, another trainman(whos name escapes me) Charlie Reed at the throttle with pokedot hat and an RS-1 or PNC geep and "Titusville" trailing along. Maybe even Mr. Ziel in the cab if the brass wasn't around or on even rarer ocasions, myself. One train out, one train in. A bigger train on Saturday and Sunday. We get there when we get there.
Life is good.

As much as things change, they really do stay the same Brother Paul!

L.I. Fred
Don, n2qhvRMLI

Any notion of a tourist or steam train running on commuter train tracks is
pure nonsense. Commuters and other passengers will have absolutely
no interest in riding in a 40 year old coach probably with no AC and maybe no heat either behind an ancient steam engine.
Be sensible folks, fight to keep what you got now and maybe eventually
the MTA/LIRR will see the light and give the area the decent service that
it deserves.
Tourist trains do not and will not EVER take the place of legitimate rail
passenger service period.....
Noel Weaver

Noel Weaver,

I totally agree that East of KO needs more service How ever with the current state govt teh Line east of KO will most likely be abandon befor it sees any decent service well all that can be blamed on the MTA and the NYS Govt.

NOTE: If a tourst Train ever does get under way between Reivehead And Greenport
A) the Pullman Cars fmr LIRR 2900 series coaches WILL be RESTORED to OPRATING condition and that INCLUDS but is NOT limited to Cleanless and Heat/AC.

I've Herd plenty of time that when thoes Pullman cars were New they were like riding in a fridgirator.

also that 80+ yr old Steam Engine can easly out preform any of the new DM/E equpt that is continusly OOS.
Tho the MTA would NEVEEEERR allow it, In the event of an engine failure Between Riverhead /Greenport, im shure that you would rather have the "acent relic" Safely bring you train consisting of New trash and angury commuters to KO where you can then bord an eletric. instead of waiting all dam day for a Protect MP15 or Bustitution and sit in traffic.

The only way more respect will be given is if such an event would really unfold, an the "Inaproate" rescue wound up saving commuters way much time then waiting for a rescue/Bus.

Joe

Noel is correct. Any ideas of replacing MTA LIRR service with any 40 year old equipment operated by a startup authority is pointless, and would be a step backward.

If the county ever went for such a thing, it would bankrupt the county and cost every elected official their job.

Why in the world would the county basically re-invent the wheel and provide service that is already being provided? To compare how they run a bus service to a railroad is silly - the busses can take any road to where the people are, which would increase ridership. If I want to go from Riverhead to Cutchogue, would I take the train and end up at miles of farmland, or in the center of town, as the bus does? This simple fact of life is why ridership is lower on this branch. Only if I wanted to see the vineyards would I ride. This doesn't bode well for a commuter operation.

If the politicians want more service, lobby the LIRR to do it, and back it up with added funding to pay for it. Even if you paid it, it would be cheaper than trying to run your own railroad.

Jay

Hello Forum members,

Some good comments and a lively conversation regarding alternative operations on the “Mainline East of Ronkonkoma.” I offer the following to keep the discussion moving.

Noel writes:

Any notion of a tourist or steam train running on commuter train tracks is
pure nonsense. Commuters and other passengers will have absolutely
no interest in riding in a 40 year old coach probably with no AC and maybe no heat either behind an ancient steam engine.

Noel, I agree with you 100%. Let me state a disclaimer here. I am a Trustee of the Railroad Museum of Long Island but in this tread I am not tying the RMLI into the “abandonment discussion” in any way. As I stated in my initial post, the new transit authority would purchase NEW, RDC type, self-contained two or three unit passenger trainsets to operate east of KO. A discussion surrounding a “tourist” or “dinner” train operation on the North Fork is years away at best and not an element of this discussion.

Jay writes:

Why in the world would the county basically re-invent the wheel and provide service that is already being provided?

Jay, in one word: “money.” I think the bean counters in Albany have looked 15, 20 or even 25 years into the future. What they have seen is it will be cheaper to “re-invent” the wheel NOW than to try and increase MTA/LIRR service as the demand increases.

Point: Our current government policy is to “privatize” as much as possible. What better way to march to the “politicians mantra” than to contract with a company that runs shortline railroads around the country to come in and manage these LIRR branches for a County Authority. Not only will it not “bankrupt” the County, in this conservative landscape, I think it will be quite a popular plan. More frequent service, private contractor, weaker Union contacts or no Union at all, less money over the long haul! (Why did the MTA contract out what could have been their lucrative freight service?)

Point: The branch lines in question are in the best condition they have been in years. The track work performed since 1997 has the track and roadbed good enough for higher speed operation, only the grade crossing switch controls limit the road to 40 mph. The new contractor/Authority won’t have to spend money on major track repairs for some time. With more frequent trains traversing the North Fork, the 40 mph speed will be less of an issue, (my opinion).

Point: If you build it, they will come. The people are coming already. They are here! Peconic had stores and businesses by their station. The buildings are still there! Make it a whistle stop again and I dare say the buildings will be put to good use. The Blue Top in Cutchogue will be back in the swing of it as hungry travelers stop in for a burger and a cold one, (OK, I’m pushing it here – but if you reestablish the hamlet train stations, Aquabogue, Jamesport, Laurel, Cutchogue and Peconic, people and businesses will come to them. Riverhead, Mattituck, Southold and Greenport hamlets are all in walking distance of the stations. How about a USPS contract to move the mail between Riverhead and the East End? Southold, Greenport, Peconic, Mattituck and Riverhead Post Offices are all within walking distance of the station, a small van or postal truck could make a transfer several times a day.)

Point: Passenger train lines do not make money! Very true, but the demand for inexpensive public transportation is everywhere, and as more people move to the East End from urban centers that provide transportation, the demand will increase here. If the demand increases, the political will to spend the money will be found. Let’s face it – the public money is there! How to do it in a reasonable, politically acceptable way is the question. Could Fred Theile be casting out the answer????? (To generate additional revenue for the line, the Suffolk Authority would negotiate the freight contracts with the NYA.)

de Don, n2qhvRMLI

Excellent pionts n2qkv.....The bread and butter and the only way to increase and sustain ridership, is through the commuters. You have to make the trians more user friendly, like lap top internet access, and above all else, faster! Take the commuter who owns a summer house out on the island, he/she probably only go out on the island on the weekends because of the 4-5 hour round trip by train, or what, 3 hours by car. If you could get an express set up that does the job in under 2 hours a lot of them, along with full time residents would go for it. Realistically they and the hollywood types are the only ones who could afford it. My question is, is this possible?