East End Service: Greenport Scoot, Montauk Line, Etc.

i have to agree with Paul, and to not get too off topic, I'm also sick of this crap of having taxpayers foot real capital costs while 'private' industry reeps the rewards (hint auto industry).

now, what peeves this evening (after a trip out east) is the rr's blatant disregard for service east of KO. next weekend features the strawberry festival and with just bus service, well it just sucks. With all the damm money we pay in fares and taxes (that's 19.00 peak and 13.00 off-peak) I think we deserve better service.

BTW, the current weekend service uses only one train set. Does anyone know how many DE/DM's the RR owns?

Eric

i think they own 20 of each, not 100%

I was at the last LIRR Public Forum, and I told Mr. Dermody directly that if the LIRR is that clueless to the ridership potential east of Ronkomkoma, they should be forced by New York State to offer that line segment to a new operator.

His response back was that the LIRR does not have enough Diesel Equipment to increase the service (????). My retort was that they then need to aquire some "used" Diesel Equipement and do it fast, equipement used as a shuttle east of Ronkonkoma can easily be "off the shelf" it does not have to be custom built as the bi-levels were.

This service should be carrying hunderds of more people every day year round, today most of them use the Sunrise Express Bus Service (a private for profit company). However for a business person like me
I rarely use Sunrise weekdays, as it leaves and departs from the residential East Side, does not allow ANY cell phone use, and requires reservations (sometimes you can luck out without a reservation, but more times than not their Busses sell out).

Rail Fans may like to photograpgh the Greenport Branch with it's pastoral setting, rural surrondings, and almost daily freight train to Southold but for those of us who actually depend on this line for essential transportation we have a long way to go.

Ken
Peconic, NY

Eric (de402),

LIRR owns 23 of each. 18 of each were available for service on Friday, June 11.

Tom

I agree with both de402 and Krapug. But, the LIRR's neglect of the North Fork is nothing new. It's been going on for decades. In the late '80's early 90's, it appeared to be only a matter of time before the line was abandoned. There was even a group that proposed converting the ROW between Riverhead and Greenport to a railtrail! I think everyone was caught off guard when the LIRR starting building those new high level platforms along the line. So why did they spend millions to build the platforms if they didn't plan on increasing service? Yeah I know, the new equipment needed high level platforms. So at this point what are the options? The LIRR could go out and get a couple of ex-Amtrak F-40's and Hertiage equipment for the line, but they won't. They claim to have an equipment shortage, but they go and sell the C-1's and essentially abandon the 3 FL-9's after spending millions on each. Yes I know of the mechanical problems each, but it would have helped. So how about a spinoff to a shortline? I always felt that a company affiliated with the RMLI would be the ideal operator of the line east of KO. They already have a presence along the line, they have both the political and corporate connections needed and it would be a locally owned and operated company. New equipment is not needed, a couple of used Alco's would fit. The company could provide a range of services, bi-hourly service for commuters, excursions for tourists, there's even room to fit in a weekend dinner train. The point I am trying to make is that the LIRR as a government agency will never move fast enough to solve the issues at hand, at least not without spending millions on studies to only come to the conclusion that more service is needed. Sell the line. Let an interested group operate it, provide a neccessary service and make a profit doing it.

We've got a great discussion going on here. I am writing a letter to Chuck, Hil, and Jimmy along with my ticket stubbs to prove that I am somewhat of a 'regular' user of eastern KO service. I'll keep sending them letters until I croak.

I agree with all that an off-the-shelf solution is in need. IMHO, a loco and cab car is kind of a waste of equipment for what really is a long shuttle route. RDC's or some sort of equipment that meets union and managment needs should be sought after.

Eric

They don't have to go out and by used stuff. There is a lot of old stuff at the MNCRR Croton shops that the rr can use until they get a few more engines. Why can't they take an old diesel and switch the coupler and have that tow a few M1/M3 sets around. May not look pretty but it will do good, I think.

Another Idea, Give the NYA another diesel and a few cars and contract some work out to them. Doubt that will ever happen, just an idea.

Towing M1/M3 with locomotives is a no no, exept to get people off at next station, in tow, the M1/M3 only has freight type braking.

NY&A can not run passenger trains, its violation of every contract the LIRR has with its labor unions. they own all work associated with movement of passengers and passenger trains on LIRR.

"I was at the last LIRR Public Forum, and I told Mr. Dermody directly that if the LIRR is that clueless to the ridership potential east of Ronkomkoma, they should be forced by New York State to offer that line segment to a new operator. "

HELL YEAH! Give it to RMLI or someone willin to work with RMLI.


"So why did they spend millions to build the platforms if they didn't plan on increasing service? Yeah I know, the new equipment needed high level platforms."

Cuz they have no common sense when it comes to doing things the less expensive way. They should've just purchased Bombardier bi-levels for the main east of KO and had a section of the KO platform built as low. It'd have been much cheaper than rebuilding all the stations with highs(didn't they abandonned 2 stations also cuz they couldn't afford it?)

Hell, at this point, they could just buy 2 Colorado Railcar consists for pretty cheap(or maybe it's not).....Just have 2 more trains, they'd be those new bi-levels they came up with, 2 car sets. No engine to pull em, just the 2 bi-levels(they're DMUs). Some stats for this:

3.9 mil each I think...that's about 15.5 mil for the 4 cars
188 pax each.....376 per train

Should be a fairly quick solution.


"So how about a spinoff to a shortline? I always felt that a company affiliated with the RMLI would be the ideal operator of the line east of KO. They already have a presence along the line, they have both the political and corporate connections needed and it would be a locally owned and operated company. New equipment is not needed, a couple of used Alco's would fit. The company could provide a range of services, bi-hourly service for commuters, excursions for tourists, there's even room to fit in a weekend dinner train."

Hell, I bet if they could get 35 and 39 runnin and down to Riverhead, they could provide much better service with just those 2 engines, and maybe a new alco or 2, lol.


"Sell the line. Let an interested group operate it, provide a neccessary service and make a profit doing it."

I'm tellin ya, if I had the money, in 5 yrs, I'd buy it from them and run my own damn service on it. How much ya think LIRR wants for it? 39mil?


" RDC's or some sort of equipment that meets union and managment needs should be sought after. "

Colorado Railcar, right there. 2 DMU bi-levels per train, 2 trains. Access to both high and low plats in case some of the old stations were to be re-opened for cheap.


I'm suprised LIRR doesn't just give it to someone. Maybe we should just nag them constantly til they crack and jus give it to us or sell it to us for cheap.

I'm amazed they haven't abandoned that line, plus Oyster Bay beyond Glen Street. Neither generates any real ridership, both have lots of expensive features (curves, grade crossings, etc).

Then again, I don't understand the LIRR's approach to east end services anyway. The ridership is there, freaking Hampton Jitney carries something like 4 times as many people than the LIRR out at that end, and it's a <b>bus</b>.

IMHO, the trouble is the same as the PJ line, etc. Too slow, too infrequent. More, faster, trains and you'd see actual ridership.

A couple of points here:

1) The MTA won't abandon the lines out east for a couple of reasons, one being that it will be hard to justify collecting MTA taxes from residents if they don't operate service. While it may not be the best service, it is service, and better than many other rural areas in the country (which have none).

2) You can't privatize a passenger railroad. They are not profitable. That's why railroads got out of the passenger business in the first place. The only way a shortline could show any profit is if they run freight, and that can't happen with the current arrangement anyway. While you could make some type of case that an operation can be profitable from "the rails up," no way would you be able to make a profit including in expenses from "the rails down." (i.e. track, signalling, crossing protection, etc.)

3) I don't know why anyone is bringing up RMLI as a designated operator. RMLI is a non-profit educational museum. Running a for-profit railroad is definitely beyond their scope and would violate provisions of their charter as a museum.

Jay

In addition to Jay's comments on MTA taxes..

 [On] April 24, 1834, "The Long Island Railroad Company" was chartered by a special act of the Legislature to build its line "from any eligible point adjoining Southold Bay, in or near the village of Greenport in the County of Suffolk, and extending west on the most practicable route through or near the middle of Long Island, to a point on the water's edge in the village of Williamsburgh; also to construct a branch railroad from the main line to Sag Harbor.

[/url]http://www.thethirdrail.net/0103/reif3.html[url]

[/url]

Sorry dutch, just an idea. But still, shouldn't there be some stuff up in croton the can use?

Just a couple of follow-ups to this thread.

In todays edition the Southold Based weekly newspaper "Traveler Watchman" is running an editorial that I wrote on the sub-par service that we receive from the LIRR.

The Mattituck based weekly paper "Suffolk Times" has a story that I was interviwed for named "Commuter Blasts LIRR US Open Policy".

The Suffolk Times article will be in their on-line edit either later today or tomorrrow. The Traveler Watchman does not yet have an on-line edition.

I'll post the T-W story when I get a copy of the paper.


I do hope that everyone else out there who agrees that this Weekends Bus Substition (FRI/Sat/Sun) is idiotic has already or is planning on calling LIRR Public Affairs Office at 718-558-8228, and call the main number and ask for Mr. Dermody's office as well. The main number is 718-558-7400.

Ken


PS Yes to some this is an "rural" area, BUT first it's not that rural, and second this is an unique rural area in that we have many second home owners fron NYC and in-island, many local residents who make regular trip to NYC and a strong vinticulture industry whose managers are always going to and from NYC for meetings, promotional seminars etc. Many of these people wind up driving to Ronkonkoma for train service which is just plain wrong.