ARC Tunnel - Revisited (Again)

cruiser939 wrote:

Jtgshu wrote:Where are the numbers coming from that LIRR needs 12 minutes to clear a train while NJT needs 20???

thats simply not true.

Agreed. Those numbers are ludicrous.

As someone who regularly shuffled between LIRR and NJT for several years i can confirm this. I think it's partially due to how passengers behave on NJT, passengers d often stand up before the station, while on the LIRR side, the single level equipment they use is much faster to exit than compared to say, a comet 2 (i've seen a 8 car comet 2 train with a comet 4 cab many times). The end doors are very narrow on the comet, the quarter point doors on the M3/M7 are wider, and there is no flipping of seats. In all honesty i'd take an M3 over a comet anyday.. On standing room only trains, LIRR is about the same as NJT, however train to street is way faster for LIRR.

In any case, i never saw the point in moving access away from 7th ave, i know a lot of folks who ride the 1 from NYP to staten island ferry, many whom travel a lot via nwk intl and dont want to leave a car at the airport, or are traveling much farther by train to/from nyc. Also, i dont have to tell anyone here how popular NYC is as a tourist destination, yea, there really isn't much on 8th ave, and 7th ave leads right into times sq and macys is across the street and up a block.... Speaking of macy's, i think they will benefit from having their flagship store right there by the east end where the street access will be....

- A

Jtgshu wrote:Where are the numbers coming from that LIRR needs 12 minutes to clear a train while NJT needs 20???

thats simply not true.

In all fairness, JT, I've heard the same numbers quoted. But I think you're misunderstanding; they're not talking about the time it takes to *turn* a train, but the time it takes to clear a given platform of all of the passengers getting off a train. Now, I'm skeptical of the 20 minute figure myself, but I do believe that it takes longer to clear the platform from a discharging NJT train than it does a discharging LIRR train.

jb9152 wrote:

Jtgshu wrote:Where are the numbers coming from that LIRR needs 12 minutes to clear a train while NJT needs 20???

thats simply not true.

In all fairness, JT, I've heard the same numbers quoted. But I think you're misunderstanding; they're not talking about the time it takes to *turn* a train, but the time it takes to clear a given platform of all of the passengers getting off a train. Now, I'm skeptical of the 20 minute figure myself, but I do believe that it takes longer to clear the platform from a discharging NJT train than it does a discharging LIRR train.

Nah, I i know what they meant, but generally you don't leave until a platform is clear, and you don't generally have folks who are waiting to go upstairs, after the folks who have come downstairs and boarded the train and the train leaves. Unless of course, MAYBE say the 7th or 8th ave concourse or a few stairs/escelators are OOS or something out of the ordinary like that, but 99.9 percent of the time, thats not the case.

the LONGEST I have EVER seen it take for a platform to be cleared totally of passengers (and I would know because most times, the crew, espeically the rear brake, is on the "hind end" of the procession) is about 10 minutes, and that was during rush hour, with 2 trains stacked on like track 11 and folks trying to head up stairs while they called a Trenton express on the adjacent track, and hundreds of people were fighting their way down - the longest is often on the west end set of stairs of the station, when most of the train is trying to make their way up the first set of stairs they see, going single file past the freight elevator

LIRR does seem to clear faster, but again, they have the extra concourse. they also get in and out of hte station faster, but thats because many of their trains come in from West Side Yard, and its just like making a station stop in NYP. Also, they generally keep to the same track each day, so folks are already down on the track before the train arrives, and know where to be, and know where the stairs are to get upstairs, and pax don't have to exit the train and look around for the closest stairs. It might only take a second or two, but it adds up when most folks do it. Even I do it especially when its the middle of the train when getting out.

Jtgshu wrote:LIRR does seem to clear faster, but again, they have the extra concourse. they also get in and out of hte station faster, but thats because many of their trains come in from West Side Yard, and its just like making a station stop in NYP. Also, they generally keep to the same track each day, so folks are already down on the track before the train arrives, and know where to be, and know where the stairs are to get upstairs, and pax don't have to exit the train and look around for the closest stairs. It might only take a second or two, but it adds up when most folks do it. Even I do it especially when its the middle of the train when getting out.

Yep, I'm skeptical of that 20 minute number myself, but you're kind of making my point when you're saying that the LIRR platforms clear more quickly due to the more optimal station design and station operating plan. That's a little of what the extra platform access points buys you with Moynihan.

But, agreed - that 20 minute figure is a gross overestimation, just like 12 minutes for LIRR is a gross overestimation.

Well the LIRR platforms were designed for commuter use, the other tracks were for inter-city trains. In fact i believe the MP54's, which ran the bulk of the local pax service in NJ according to what i've read online primarily utilized tracks 1-5. while the GG1s and DD2's etc would pull in mainly on the through tracks to be serviced and turned in sunnyside. This operation was at a time when service was often run all most like a "big subway" with trains every 10-15 minutes at some stations, the top speed was pretty much around 80 mph for all equipment, so there was not an issue as far as some trains being much faster than others, and remember, freight was put through on the main as well... If PRR can do it, i think NJTR/amtk can figure it out (sans freight of course). Adding this tunnel and new terminal, even if it ends up staying stub ended, it will massively increase capacity at NYP.

- A

TREnecNYP wrote:Speaking of macy's, i think they will benefit from having their flagship store right there by the east end where the street access will be....

Right; because so many more people on the lines that serve the new terminal are going to ride the train to Macy's because now they don't have to cross one street to get there.

cruiser939 wrote:

TREnecNYP wrote:Speaking of macy's, i think they will benefit from having their flagship store right there by the east end where the street access will be....

Right; because so many more people on the lines that serve the new terminal are going to ride the train to Macy's because now they don't have to cross one street to get there.

Actually it will be the first thing they see, but ok!

- A

cruiser939 wrote: Agreed. Those numbers are ludicrous.

As someone who's ridden both systems, I agree - the real numbers are maybe 1/2 that (The LIRR has an advantage because of the West Side yard).

Neither operation could handle Penn Station's loads with those numbers.

A huge amount of commuter service from NJ used to terminate at Hoboken (there was no midtown direct), or Exchange Place.

IIRC, Penn handles more traffic now than it ever did.

I saw an article from nj.com where that NJT has returned more than 4 million to the feds for having let the time frame lapsed(not real news)..what did catch my attention was the completion date of now "late 2018"........haha...thats a 2010 estimate..how much you want to bet it will soon be 2020...and beyond

northjerseybuff wrote:I saw an article from nj.com where that NJT has returned more than 4 million to the feds for having let the time frame lapsed(not real news)..what did catch my attention was the completion date of now "late 2018"........haha...thats a 2010 estimate..how much you want to bet it will soon be 2020...and beyond

As you can see from reading the entire article, the funds were returned because they were for a study which was deemed unnecessary. http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2010/0 ... dy_on.html

As for your bet, I'm not taking that action.

cruiser939 wrote:

northjerseybuff wrote:I saw an article from nj.com where that NJT has returned more than 4 million to the feds for having let the time frame lapsed(not real news)..what did catch my attention was the completion date of now "late 2018"........haha...thats a 2010 estimate..how much you want to bet it will soon be 2020...and beyond

As you can see from reading the entire article, the funds were returned because they were for a study which was deemed unnecessary. http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2010/0 ... dy_on.html

As for your bet, I'm not taking that action.

Well, no "real" construction has started yet, has it?

I drove down there today. The road is beeing shored up with those large metal barries they hammer into the ground. One business on the n/b side looks like it will knocked down soon. I'de say its mostly utility work right now before they create the overpass.

http://blog.nj.com/njv_editorial_page/2 ... l_pro.html

Construction of the ARC Trans-Hudson Express Tunnel will accelerate this summer as contractors begin the project’s first major underground segment through the Palisades in Hudson County.

northjerseybuff wrote:http://blog.nj.com/njv_editorial_page/2 ... l_pro.html

Construction of the ARC Trans-Hudson Express Tunnel will accelerate this summer as contractors begin the project’s first major underground segment through the Palisades in Hudson County.

Finally, some light at the end of the tunnel

How exactly is this going to work? Will inbound trains stop on the lower level and outbounds on the upper level?