Amtrak on the Florida East Coast FEC Jacksonville - Miami

Let me chime in here. First of all....I think the Silver trains actually do well timewise. Things like heat orders really bogg you down...something that you cant control. Also, people here forget that Amtrak locos are not compatible with FEC's cab signal system. So that issue is gonna have to be dealt with. And dont say simply add an FEC loco to the train because not only time consuming, but its not feasible to run these trains with motors that are limted to 60-70mph, no dynamics (for the most part) or blended brake capabilty. Not to mention someone would have to ride the Amtrak engine cause you have to have the capability of shutting down the HEP. Not sure if FEC motors have grad release capability.

Bringing the Palmetto down the FEC is stupid in my mind. It has no sleeper capabilty or diner....something needed to help out as far as generating higher rev from 1st class patrons.

Amtrak will have to retrofitt some dedicated power with the FEC cab sytem. 90mph on this line would be pointless. Fact is the train schedule should not change as far as leaving JAX going north. If is running 90mph on the FEC....it would get to JAX way too early. Unless they delay its depart time in Miami.

Some of you say that all they need to do is rebuild the stations along the FEC for the service. Well if you do that....where do you put all the displaced MofW crews and locals that called there?

And for those of you who think this is going to happen in the next few months....forget it. We dont have enough people in JAX to spare to start the months of qualifying time they need. You cant say that th crews that run the meteor will be he ones to do thi route.....cause they would still be running the old way to keep the service going in the meantime.

Noel Weaver wrote:I don't think anything at Auburndale was paid for by the State of Florida. The connection eastbound/northbound existed when the FEC strike took place in 1963 and was immediately put to use in the detour. It has been improved on with
interlocked switches and signals but that was most likely put up by the railroad and not the state.
As for the connection west to Tampa, that was put in and upgraded by CSX when they abandoned the line between
Auburndale and Coleman in order to accommodate through freight trains to/from Miami and Wildwood and present a
through freight train between Maimi and Waycross, GA uses that connection as does the Silver Star en route Miami - Tampa.

Mr. Weaver, while I wholly respect that 1) you retired from CSX Engine service and 2) you are a South Florida resident, I had learned at the time the Palm was inaugurated, that SW quadrant connection, i.e. Northbound on the SAL to WB on the ACL, was placed in service to accommodate the Silver Palm and was publicly funded. Further, as I recall, the SAL remained a through routing Jax-Miami during 1983; during that era, there was only so much I could take of "Zero Beach" and my Father's wife looking for things to complain about - the noonday "action' at Auburndale was my refuge. I can distinctly recall the Meteor "scorching ballast" over the diamond on SAL rails.

Let's table these points until someone with local knowledge (Crazy Nip, are you still out there? never forget I "stuck up for you' when i was at the throttle around here) chooses to step forth.

Regarding the SE quadrant, i.e. NB SAL to EB ACL, that was in place since "whenever". It was ready to go when The Strike occurred ending all interline passenger service over the FEC. Again I should defer to others to what extent the SE quadrant was used for freight service; I'm not certain, but quite curious, if SAL and ACL made rates through Auburndale. Possibly there was Local Delivery (reciprocal switching) regardless of Line Haul carrier to one orange juice processing plant or the other.

Finally, I'm well aware that the FEC is an immaculately maintained property; I remain astounded to observe trains passing through Downtown Delray Beach at track speed of 60mph (I think they slow down a bit for Boca and Pompano). However, my previously stated opposition to an Amtrak reroute of one train over the FEC stands. While i know at present Amtrak is "basking in the the glow of a Golden Boy", there will be initiatives to cut Amtrak's budget - it happens at one time or the other during every Administration - and the incumbents likely have seven years to go (Sarah for Sacrifical Lamb?). As I've noted, the Meteor is the most vulnerable LD train out there as it could be whacked without any 180 Day Notice under ARRA '97. However, if it were rerouted over the FEC, Notice would be required as Jax-FEC-WPB would loose its only service.

I don't know about today but in the days when I ran F-40's, many of them had a selector for the different cab signal systems
in use in that era. I do not know about today's GE fleet but with the on board computers etc, I don't think the cab signal
system on the FEC would be a serious barrier, they would have lots of time to get at least some of their locomotives set up
to run on this railroad.
As for stations, there are presently none available to my knowledge. If there are remains of them and there are some,
they are most likely not in a place where they would need to be over 40 years after the last of the previous passenger trains
operated.
As for Amtrak engineers, this is quite simple, provide the engineers with a pilot until the two railroads consider them
properly qualfied to operate trains on their own.
GBN, I forgot about the Silver Palm of the past, you might be correct about that connection. I know the EB/NB connection
was originally a hand thrown switch because I used to watch and photograph the moves there when they were putting
trains together there and it seemed to take a long time to accomplish the job. When I rode 98 up to Kissimmee last year
we never stopped at Auburndale and there was little radio conversation so the switch has to be a controlled switch these
days.
I know that doing things efficiently, fast and at a reasonable cost these days doesn't seem to fit but it is possible if all of
the parties cooperate and it certainally possible here too. Lets just wait and see if something positive comes of this or
whether it is just some more hot air which is often the case here in Florida.
Noel Weaver

Gilbert B Norman wrote:As I've noted, the Meteor is the most vulnerable LD train out there as it could be whacked without any 180 Day Notice under ARRA '97. However, if it were rerouted over the FEC, Notice would be required as Jax-FEC-WPB would loose its only service.

However, since the Silver Meteor is the best performing of all overnight single level LD trains Amtrak will have to figure out a different way to cook their performance numbers to justify whacking it.

Mr. Jishnu, even if I'm "not exactly" considered the LD's strongest ally around here, I'm not for one moment suggesting the Meteor be killed. I am mindful that its ridership measured by passengers boarded is essentially a "dead heat" with the Star - even considering the latter has two state capitols and a highly developed "research triangle" on line. I'm further mindful that "Amtrak is on a roll' and is probably in the strongest political environment it has enjoyed since Claytor. No one is presently talking cuts; they are even talking adding services, although not any LD routes.

One of these days, the Great Recession WILL be over. True these are extraordinary circumstances that the entire industrialized world faces. The Stimulus legislation (ARRA '09), TARP, GM & Chrysler going through an orchestrated bankruptcy with Barack Obama at the podium, interest free borrowing by banks from the Fed - all represent extraordinary measures that two Congresses and Administrations have deemed necessary. Maybe, just maybe, at this time there is the proverbial "light at the end of the tunnel'.

The Recession's end could well mark a beginning of fiscal responsibility, it may not, and likely best not, happen as swiftly as such did during the Roosevelt administration during 1937 which put us back into "Depression II", but the sentiment as times get better,will be to spend less $$$ - and Amtrak will just be one of these ancillary programs that looks good on the chopping block.

The moral is that Amtrak, even with an Obama administration, could be looking to cut. Cut will care less if a train is pulling its weight, cut won't even care if real $$$ are being saved. Case in point, how much has Amtrak really saved considering capital costs with the Simplified Dining Service initiative?

As I've noted, the Meteor on its existing route is quite vulnerable to being cut if the call for such moves forth as there is already other service over all segments of its existing route, no Notice under ARAA '97 need be served. Amtrak is free to simply decide "we aint running it no more". They will not be in the rather untenable position, should anyone other than a few rag tag ad hoc advocacy grouops press the matter, I believe they are presently in regarding the Sunset East, where they discontinued a train requiring Notice contending that it is only annulled.

Just some thoughts that could well be applicable someday, but not today.

on my recent trip to Miami on the Star. I do believe that Florida can have a expanded corridor service from Orlando to Miami or Jacksonville to Tampa or Miami to Tampa. The market is their. Riding Tri rail, I found that the trains were well patronized and clean. The only thing missing is the will to do it.

I seem to recall talk of this, or something similar, about 10 years ago. I recall hearing about it while staying with my Grandparents in Jensen Beach. There was an article in the local newspaper talking about it, and mentioning a stop in Stuart. Any idea as to why that plan never went through?

From personal experience there is definetly a market for this. When I traveled on one of the Silver trains in 1999 myself and my dad had to rent a car to get from Orlando to Jensen Beach. There were at least 3 other groups in our car doing something similar. It seems to me if you have 15 people in 1 car all taking the train from DC and points north to orlando then driving to the east coast, that there must be a fairly high number of people who would use an FEC routed LD train.

I would think that a new train would be more beneficial seeing as to how I remember the Silver train I was on being completely full during the middle of the week on a non-school vacation week. If the Silver trains are getting good numbers than why would amtrak want to take away from that? I realize they don't have the equipment to start a new train, but it is also unlikely that they will be doing this route anytime in the next few years. So it seems logical that they could plan ahead and add more equipment in the near future.

I'd like to see the FEC host some passenger trains. the FEC runs scheduled freight and probably doesn't want to deal with late long distance train, and that's fine. run 6 a day or so JAX-Miami trains with connecting service at JAX. Additionally, maybe this service could, like the freight that runs on the FEC, be extended to run Atlanta-Miami via JAX adn the FEC.

CBass1307 wrote:
From personal experience there is definetly a market for this. When I traveled on one of the Silver trains in 1999 myself and my dad had to rent a car to get from Orlando to Jensen Beach. There were at least 3 other groups in our car doing something similar. It seems to me if you have 15 people in 1 car all taking the train from DC and points north to orlando then driving to the east coast, that there must be a fairly high number of people who would use an FEC routed LD train.

In Florida, a rental car is a necessity for most travelers and Orlando is perhaps the highest volume and most competitive rental car market in Florida. Unlike Manhattan, for instance, if you're stuck without a vehicle in Florida, you're basically stranded. If a rental car is an inevitable necessity, why would travelers wish to pay more for that rental? Sometimes it pays to travel to a train station (or airport) that is a little further from your final destination because the rental cars are dramatically less expensive.

Suburban Station wrote:I'd like to see the FEC host some passenger trains. the FEC runs scheduled freight and probably doesn't want to deal with late long distance train, and that's fine. run 6 a day or so JAX-Miami trains with connecting service at JAX.

The key to running a passenger service on the FEC is making sure that the addition trains run on schedule, which basically excludes the Silver Service, and any other long distance trains, which can be subjected to tremendous delays.

I do think that a successful Miami-Jacksonville service would require multiple daily round trips, excellent time keeping, limited station stops and short dwell times.

goodnightjohnwayne wrote: In Florida, a rental car is a necessity for most travelers and Orlando is perhaps the highest volume and most competitive rental car market in Florida. Unlike Manhattan, for instance, if you're stuck without a vehicle in Florida, you're basically stranded. If a rental car is an inevitable necessity, why would travelers wish to pay more for that rental? Sometimes it pays to travel to a train station (or airport) that is a little further from your final destination because the rental cars are dramatically less expensive.

I travel from Fresno to Tampa with some regularity. These days, it is kind of a pain, without being able to patronize the Sunset Limited. The shortest trip to Florida involves a transfer in Chicago and another in DC. I used to do the bus thing from Orlando to Tampa (there is no reliable connection, without spending the night in DC, to the Silver Star), then it dawned on me that since I needed to rent a car anyway, why not rent it in Orlando instead of Tampa? It's cheaper, and since my final destination is the Venice area, driving from Orlando is much quicker than taking the bus to Tampa (or Pt. Charlotte) and then still need to rent a car (although I hate driving either I-4 or I-75).

Gilbert B Norman wrote:I certainly agree Mr. Train Headquarters, that an intrastate passenger train system would have potential. Every year i "go down below", it just seems as if there is more traffic than before.

But "We the People of Florida" have clearly said "NO"; to what extent that "no" was influenced by air transport and auto rental interests, i know not. but I do know I'm at a loss to think of anyone who goes down without an auto; I know I don't.

I don't know why this has to be repeated, but Mr. Norman over and over makes this statement as if he were part of the WE involved. He is not, and he is misrepresenting what the people of Florida said. They voted overwhelmingly FOR a vast expansion of rail in their state, which was then rolled back by their governor. There is nothing at all clear about what the people of Florida stated, and it's truly odd to keep reading these misrepresentations coming from the same person.

Mr. Ultra, from Wikipedia:

• Florida High Speed Rail is a proposed high-speed rail network in Florida. Funding for the system was authorized by a 2000 referendum of Florida voters but repealed by 64% of Florida voters in a 2004 referendum. The first phase, planned for completion in 2009, would have connected Orlando to Tampa (Phase 1 Part 1), with a later extension to St. Petersburg (Phase 1 Part 2). Later phases might have extended the network to Miami, Fort Myers, Jacksonville, Tallahassee and Pensacola.
  
  Some have argued that the wording on the 2004 referendum was misleading, and some may have assumed it was the same as the 2000 referendum and voted the opposite of what they meant to vote.
  
  Despite the denial of funding due to the referendum passed November 2, 2004, the Florida High Speed Rail Authority continues to meet, and is almost done with the environmental impact statement for the Tampa-Orlando segment. In January 2007 the authority issued an update letter to the Florida governor

If the Wiki author has the facts straight, and I recognize such can be other than the case, the "killing" of the HSR initiative appeared to be action by "We The People", and not by a cabal headed by a Governor with whose policies in all likelihood you were ideologically opposed.

No I am not a Florida resident, but I have been "going down below" once or twice a season and have done so ever since my Father (1909-2001) set up shop down there during 1980. While possibly you could have an enjoyable vacation down there without an auto (your postings here have suggested the less you have to do with an auto the happier you are), I guarantee you any time I've gone down, I have had one - rented or my own as the case may be.

Incidentially, rental autos down below "ain't cheap no more ' . I realize they once were, but that was nowadays a "once upon a time".

24 hour cool-off period. Enjoy your thursday.

Hello fellow Rail fans I am taking the morning off to rest and upon following the post today, over the last week I noticed this topic slightly found its way into the semi heated debate over the topic on Dr. Utt story to kill HSR. It seems that failure in the past has done little to stop the coalition from trying again to bring direct Amtrak service from Jacksonville to Miami, as today a town hall hearing is underway. I myself would have "driven" to Cocoa beach for the meeting but was only informed of such a meeting after watching Orlando' s channel 9 news this morning. ( there were some pretty nice shots of the silver star and meteor on this morning news). Instead of continuing this in the ... "America's Coming High-Speed Rail Financial Disaster".. I decided to open a post of its own. If this hopeful route ever gets the green light it may never be true HSR but I can live with 110 mph service. on the FEC.

http://www.historiccity.com/2010/staugu ... ition-2846
http://staugustine.com/opinions/2010-03 ... nds-chance

One city that firmly stands behind the purposed FEC route and a station of there own to boot...
http://www.cfnews13.com/Traffic/OnTheMo ... _stop.html

supporting story from last years attempt...
http://jacksonville.com/news/metro/2009 ... rain_route