Amtrak on the Florida East Coast FEC Jacksonville - Miami

Lets get some decent service up and down the east coast of Florida before we worry about service west to Tallahassee.
The resorts and the population are on the east coast and not in Tallahassee.
As for St. Augusting's dream of federal funds for their station, my opinion is if they wait for that the train will pass them by.
All of the local stops need to come up with at least some of the funds needed for a local station. If there is a will to do that,
there is a way to accomplish that. If these proposed stops really had their act together, they could have a train within
months. Unfortunately, I do not think most of them have their act together. The exception might be Stuart which seems to
be more in tune with reality than the rest of them.
Maybe something positive will happen when more talks take place as they surely will. Money talks and everything else is
likely to walk in this case.
I sincerely hope that something positive happens. Maybe the inspection train will help create real interest with some money
to go with the interest.
Noel Weaver

will the FEC be more scenic than the occasional orange grove/desert scenery on the current route? I was hopeful that on this route you will be able to see the ocean...

Mr. HI, it appears that Henry Flagler did a good job brainwashing you; to my best knowledge, here is the scenic highlight along the line.

Don't feel bad, he did it to many another.

Related material

[quote="CREngineer"]Actually Mr. Norman, this project would be a re-routing of one of the present trains operating to Miami, not an additional "corridor" train as implied and funded by the State of Florida.



Actually you are also incorrect. The current plan calls for both the Star and Meteor seperating into 2 trains each at JAX....each running one route. So both the FEC and CSX will have Star and Meteor service.

KV,
Actually, there is no such plan as you describe unless someone is just thinking out loud what they would like to see. Without getting into any details at this time, i will say this, that has been talked about, as have many other ideas. Nothing is firm with the exception that unless the liability issue is resolved, there will be no expansion of service.

You work out of JAX for us, correct? i will be in jax on april 28th, so drop me a PM and we can discuss further off line and in person if you would like.

Best regards,
BP

PS-Noel W can attest to my involvement with this project.

KV1guy wrote: Actually you are also incorrect. The current plan calls for both the Star and Meteor seperating into 2 trains each at JAX....each running one route. So both the FEC and CSX will have Star and Meteor service.

Well, that would be a hideously inefficient operation, with the potential for adding hours of delays. It basically sounds like the mother of all make-work projects and a good way of antagonizing the passengers as they potentially wait for hours in hot and dark trains. Yes, bad things happen when trains are switched en route, and while the pre-1971 passenger railroads managed to accomplish it, in the post-Amtrak HEP era, switching occupied cars has never been as simple as it should be. Besides, Amtrak would have additional crew expenses, perhaps several million per year to switch the Silver Service trains in Jacksonville.

If this is the way that service will be restored to the FEC, it has the potential to be a counterproductive and disastrous move.

Where in our discussion has it been noted that FEC will be expecting more from Amtrak than the self-indemnification prevalent (to my best knowledge) in the contractual relationships between Amtrak and other roads?

I thought such a demand has thus far been limited from CSX to Sun Rail (De Land-Poinciana regional service) as part of the sale of the A-Line to the Local agency..

CREngineer wrote:KV,
Actually, there is no such plan as you describe unless someone is just thinking out loud what they would like to see. Without getting into any details at this time, i will say this, that has been talked about, as have many other ideas. Nothing is firm with the exception that unless the liability issue is resolved, there will be no expansion of service.

You work out of JAX for us, correct? i will be in jax on april 28th, so drop me a PM and we can discuss further off line and in person if you would like.

Best regards,
BP

PS-Noel W can attest to my involvement with this project.

CREng,

I hate to bust your bubble.....but I have the PDF for the Oct 1, 2009 Application for Amtrak/FEC service filed with the FDOT, and it clearly states that the current plan for operations is to seperate each train and run it as I said. Here it is word for word. Granted yes I know that they can change their minds but this is the most current info Ive seen.


"The proposed service plan consists of splitting Amtrak’s current Silver Meteor and Silver Star Service in
Jacksonville. Currently, the state of Florida is served by two Amtrak AutoTrains (one northbound and one
southbound) which provide service between Lorton, VA and Sanford, FL and four Amtrak Intercity Service trains
(two northbound and two southbound) which provide service between New York and Miami. These trains enter the
state via CSXT’s A-Line and continue to Tampa/Miami via CSXT’s A-Line through Orlando to CSXT’s S-Line to
Miami (Map 2). The proposed service plan consists of splitting both the Star and Meteor daily and re-routing via
the FEC in phase 1, with approximately three daily round trip corridor trains that will operate only between
Jacksonville and Miami in subsequent phases. Phase 1 may be implemented in two sub-phases depending on
equipment procurement requirements. The total trip time between Jacksonville and Miami is estimated at 6:03-6:22
inclusive of the thirteen station stops."

CREng,

Btw I welcome the chance to meet ya. If noting changes though I will be bringing in 91 that morning from Hamlet, NC. Why would I need to make sure with Noel that what u are saying is legit? I have no reason to doubt ya.....Im just going off what the application states which also still coincides with what some of the upper management in JAX know.

Also, I should have mentioned it but if u can get a copy of that PDF that info is on page 5 of the 469 page document. Its also restated several times thru-out it. Has this plan for FEC changed?

I would presume this is the document noted by Mr. KV1.

No question whatever, somebody thinks that plan calls for additional service over the FEC. Jax-Northwood (WPB) with through cars and with the existing service over the ACL to Auburndale or Tampa thence SAL to Miami undisturbed. The new service over the FEC would, with respect to operating costs, be 100% Federal, i.e. Amtrak's annual appropriation.

Funny how the last time I checked, there is to be NO new Federally funded routes or frequencies. Two administrations have now (or so I thought) embraced that there would be Local funding of any new service.

This will be interesting, but I think this is some kind of wish list submitted by the FDOT. Hope somebody is listening to the great philosopher named Mick.

ALL CONCERNED::::
What CR is saying here is more legitimate than what I am saying here. He knows what is happening on this one.
The questing on scenery, the FEC is far more scenic than the present route but more important it is in far better shape,
the line is most likely good for at least 90 MPH for much of the way, track is probably as good as the NEC and it already
has cab signals and automatic train control practically from end to end. Concrete ties, heavy welded rail and everything
else needed for a first class railroad. It is also at least 40 miles shorter than the present haphazzard route west then
east in the process of going south.
These trains should have been routed to the FEC years ago but it still has not happened. I think this will be corrected
sometime before too much longer. I sure hope so.
Noel Weaver

Noel.....

Dont hold your breath on all that. I talked to both the Amtrak RFoE and Amtrak engineer who rode up front with the FEC engineer on AARPCO train a few months ago...and both noted issues with the track and signals (approach signal issues and having to reduce train speed down considerably below whats permitted under that indication to keep from getting a penalty)...and was also confirmed by that FEC engineer. Makes me wonder how much FEC's infastructure has degraded under Fortress acquisition. No wonder they're wanting Amtrak so bad.

Mr. Norman, the document that you linked to was the FEC preapplication; the full application referenced by Mr. KV1 is available here:

http://www.dot.state.fl.us/planning/eco ... cation.pdf (warning: 36MB)

As always, the devil is in the details, and in this case, the details show that both Mr. KV1 and Mr. CREngineer are correct. The "Agreement in Principle" between the State of Florida and Amtrak is reproduced on pages 459 to 468 of the application, and the relevant part states:

(1) Amtrak currently operates long distance service from New York, New York to Miami, Florida through two daily services, the Silver Star and Silver Meteor. While these services use alternate corridors nor th of Savannah, Georgia, both services currenly operate on the same lines within the State of Florida. The State desires Amtrak to improve that service by providing the following modified or additional service ("Improved Service"):

(1) Operate initially one daily round trip segment between Jacksonville and Miami, Florida on the Florida East Coast (FEC) Railway and the South Florida Rail Corridor (SFRC);

(2) Subject to further agreement between Amtrak and the State, operate a second daily round trip segment between Jacksonville and Miami on the FEC Railway and the SFRC, but only after completing rehabilitation of necessary existing rolling stock or the acquisition of new rolling stock with the funds identified for those activities in the Application;

The agreement then goes on to say that operation of the Improved Service is conditional on a number of things, including "terms and conditions for operation of the Improved service by Amtrak, including the extent of State funding of costs associated with the Improved Service".

So, everyone is right! The initial plan is for one LD on the FEC, the intermediate plan is for two LDs on the FEC, and the state will probably be paying unless the marginal revenues exceed the marginal costs (which may be relatively low in this case, depending on how they define "marginal").

KV1guy wrote:Noel.....

Dont hold your breath on all that. I talked to both the Amtrak RFoE and Amtrak engineer who rode up front with the FEC engineer on AARPCO train a few months ago...and both noted issues with the track and signals (approach signal issues and having to reduce train speed down considerably below whats permitted under that indication to keep from getting a penalty)...and was also confirmed by that FEC engineer. Makes me wonder how much FEC's infastructure has degraded under Fortress acquisition. No wonder they're wanting Amtrak so bad.

The Amtrak people do not know this railroad as well as the FEC people do. I know FEC people too and the railroad is being
well taken care of under RA and Fotress. There are track people and work trains out frequently.
A crew can not run a freight train for a distance of over 300 miles within the permitted 12 hours on a single track railroad
that is not well maintained, it just can not be done. I ran a 300 mile division up north in New York State before my
retirement and doing a run of this length can be done but you must have the railroad to do it on or you will not make it in
the 12 hours.
Florida East Coast does not have to recrew their road trains very often and most of the time when they do, it is through no
fault of their own. One problem everywhere in Florida on every line of railroad is grade crossings and the FEC is no
exception to this, they have a lot of them and vehicles get clobbered from time to time and when this happens the crew
is likly to run out of time before they have completed their trip.
The Florida East Coast is far better than any other railroad that Amtrak is running on south of Washington, DC, believe me,
I know on this one.
Noel Weaver

Sorry, I did not fully answer an earlier question, as far as scenery is concerned the Florida East Coast is quite scenic. US-1
follows it for a considerable distance and there is water visible in many locations as well. There are four drawbridges, in
addition to the one at Stuart there are also drawbridges at jupiter, Fort Lauderdale and a huge bridge over the St. Johns
River in Jacksonville. The interesting thing about this bridges is that the first three that I mentioned above are controlled
from the dispatcher's office. When a train is in the picture the dispatcher will call for the bridge and it takes approximately
10 minutes from the time the dispatcher first calls for the bridge until the bridge has lowered and locked down and the
signal displayed for the train. The siren noise that you heard in the background on the video is the warning that the bridge
will soon lower. There is also a digital readout at each bridge on each side with a minute and second countdown until the
'bridge will lower. By this system if you are waiting at the location for a train you will get a warning in excess of 15 minutes
for each train. Stuart and Jupiter are single track bridges, Fort Lauderdale is double track and Jacksonville is also double
track. Jacksonville is the only one of the four that has a drawbridge operator to open and close the bridge.
There are many videos that can be viewed on "YOUTUBE" of this interesting railroad.
I see this railroad almost on a daily basis at various locations around South Florida and believe me it is in superb condition
in every respect from one end to the other.
Noel Weaver