Viewliner II Delivery/Production

Matt Johnson wrote:Not being super familiar with the history of southeast Virginia, what I find surprising is that nobody ever connected the peninsula to Norfolk via a railroad bridge!

The "history" you refer to would in particular be that of the United States Navy. Hence the plethora of tunnels at water crossings in that area.

I had a much longer post on the relevant topic at hand dump. Here's the gist of it.

I don't think any discussion of the Cardinal is really all that relevant in light of the need for the Atlantic Coast Service to receive as much of the new rolling stock as possible. At the current pace it will be about 10 years before Amtrak is able to fully address the gaping holes in their Florida trains that they currently have at present. Discussion of other trains, while interested ignores the primary need to meet abundant market demand for rail passenger travel (in first class no less) to Florida. I think that's what Amtrak is going to focus on and I can see a near future where a pool of single level Viewliner equipment is assembled that will allow flexible consist management with a focus on meeting Florida demand and growing the market. It will be game changing both operationally and fiscally for Amtrak to run trains at a level of service and capacity similar to what the ACL/SCL/SAL once did. I think that's where this is headed. After that there's potential for some attention to the Lake Shore Limited and then the Crescent. Anything beyond that seems to me to be absurd to consider until all of the previously mentioned trains serving their market demand for high end service.

gokeefe wrote:I had a much longer post on the relevant topic at hand dump. Here's the gist of it.

I don't think any discussion of the Cardinal is really all that relevant in light of the need for the Atlantic Coast Service to receive as much of the new rolling stock as possible. At the current pace it will be about 10 years before Amtrak is able to fully address the gaping holes in their Florida trains that they currently have at present. Discussion of other trains, while interested ignores the primary need to meet abundant market demand for rail passenger travel (in first class no less) to Florida. I think that's what Amtrak is going to focus on and I can see a near future where a pool of single level Viewliner equipment is assembled that will allow flexible consist management with a focus on meeting Florida demand and growing the market. It will be game changing both operationally and fiscally for Amtrak to run trains at a level of service and capacity similar to what the ACL/SCL/SAL once did. I think that's where this is headed. After that there's potential for some attention to the Lake Shore Limited and then the Crescent. Anything beyond that seems to me to be absurd to consider until all of the previously mentioned trains serving their market demand for high end service.

I would tend to agree. Very much so.

I'm not sure I follow the logic. If there is also additional demand on the Crescent and Lake Shore, what's the difference between selling out additional space on those trains vs the Florida trains?

Matt Johnson wrote:I'm not sure I follow the logic. If there is also additional demand on the Crescent and Lake Shore, what's the difference between selling out additional space on those trains vs the Florida trains?

Price. I suspect you can charge more for a bedroom on the Florida trains than the LSL or Crescent.

That said, anecdotally, I don't recall seeing the Crescent Sleepers full as much as the coaches. I suspect there's demand there, but not as much as the other trains.

Matt Johnson wrote:I'm not sure I follow the logic. If there is also additional demand on the Crescent and Lake Shore, what's the difference between selling out additional space on those trains vs the Florida trains?

The Florida trains would appear to have such high demand that Amtrak can charge higher price points. Furthermore, the Florida services are so dense that the market is deeper due to higher frequencies than just 1x/day each way. In effect the Atlantic Coast Service has corridor-like qualities on most of its mileage which the Lake Shore Limited does not beyond NY State (or even just past ALB) and the Crescent most certainly does not once it gets to GA.

Point being you could lengthen the consists on those two trains and not get the same return on investment that you would by lengthening consists on the Florida services due to the "corridor/network effect". Furthermore the East Coast travel market to Florida is just that much deeper. The unexploited volume is clearly very substantial. That may or may not be the case with single frequency trains to/from CHI and NOL/ATL. My assumptions in all of these cases rest on the idea that no new Long Distance trains can or will be started up (due to PRIIA). However existing services can be extended. The Palmetto would return to running as the Silver Palm but even more likely perhaps would be the Silver Meteor resuming service from BOS or some kind of through sleeper car arrangement.

Greg Moore wrote:That said, anecdotally, I don't recall seeing the Crescent Sleepers full as much as the coaches. I suspect there's demand there, but not as much as the other trains.

Agreed. And that's where flexible consist management policies could allow Amtrak to build those markets. I find the low level of rail service offerred out of Atlanta to be almost obscene but when you think of the distances, time and present speeds involved it makes sense.

gokeefe wrote:

Matt Johnson wrote:I'm not sure I follow the logic. If there is also additional demand on the Crescent and Lake Shore, what's the difference between selling out additional space on those trains vs the Florida trains?

The Florida trains would appear to have such high demand that Amtrak can charge higher price points. Furthermore, the Florida services are so dense that the market is deeper due to higher frequencies than just 1x/day each way. In effect the Atlantic Coast Service has corridor-like qualities on most of its mileage which the Lake Shore Limited does not beyond NY State (or even just past ALB) and the Crescent most certainly does not once it gets to GA.

Point being you could lengthen the consists on those two trains and not get the same return on investment that you would by lengthening consists on the Florida services due to the "corridor/network effect". Furthermore the East Coast travel market to Florida is just that much deeper. The unexploited volume is clearly very substantial. That may or may not be the case with single frequency trains to/from CHI and NOL/ATL. My assumptions in all of these cases rest on the idea that no new Long Distance trains can or will be started up (due to PRIIA). However existing services can be extended. The Palmetto would return to running as the Silver Palm but even more likely perhaps would be the Silver Meteor resuming service from BOS or some kind of through sleeper car arrangement.

I have to agree with this very much so. Its pretty much the basis of why the auto train exists today only as a VA to FL train. There is long history of people traveling to and from Florida from the Northeast for vacation, holidays, and seasonal changes ever since the rise of mechanical air conditioning in the 40s and 50s. This is a market that has not faded and seems to always have some kind of demand even since the rise of air travel. I have met quite a few people in my life so far esp in my railroad career who are afraid to fly, travel to florida frequently and will only take Amtrak.

gokeefe wrote: I don't think any discussion of the Cardinal is really all that relevant in light of the need for the Atlantic Coast Service to receive as much of the new rolling stock as possible. At the current pace it will be about 10 years before Amtrak is able to fully address the gaping holes in their Florida trains that they currently have at present. Discussion of other trains, while interested ignores the primary need to meet abundant market demand for rail passenger travel (in first class no less) to Florida. I think that's what Amtrak is going to focus on and I can see a near future where a pool of single level Viewliner equipment is assembled that will allow flexible consist management with a focus on meeting Florida demand and growing the market. ...

However, we know the build order of the CAF Viewliners from the reports. First, there will 8 cars delivered, 2 of each type for testing and training. After that the production order will be completing the 25 diner cars, then the 25 baggage-dorm cars, then the 25 sleepers in sequence while building the 55 baggage cars alongside through end of 2015. The two test V II sleeper cars may or may not go into the equipment pool while waiting on the remaining 23 in 2015.

But the production order indicates that in general that all the eastern LD trains will be converted to the new diner cars (except for the Cardinal which can wait until 2 sleepers are assigned to each train), then to the baggage-dorms freeing up roomettes for sale, then the new sleepers will be deployed. If enough new sleepers are available by the late 2015 peak season for travel to FL, then the Star and Meteor may get first dibs on adding an additional sleeper for the peak period. The LSL, by the way, generated almost as much sleeper revenue per passenger as the Meteor in FY2012.

I would suspect that as the sleepers come off the CAF line, the will be rotated in in a 1-1 basis with the View I's to allow for refurbishment, and as those come back, they you may see extra sleeping car lines on various trains.

How old are the original Viewliners anyway?

beanbag wrote:How old are the original Viewliners anyway?

From Wikipedia:

The prototype Viewliner cars were assembled at Amtrak's Beech Grove Shops in 1987-1988 from Budd components. Two sleeping cars (2300 and 2301) were built, as was one dining car (8400). These cars were tested on the Capitol Limited beginning in 1988.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viewliner" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

AMTK1007 wrote:I would suspect that as the sleepers come off the CAF line, the will be rotated in in a 1-1 basis with the View I's to allow for refurbishment, and as those come back, they you may see extra sleeping car lines on various trains.

All of this was addressed in Amtrak's "Fleet Strategy" reports over the past few years. Baggage cars and diners are a replacement one-for-one. Baggage-dorms free up revenue space in existing sleepers. Ultimately the Silver Service trains and Crescent receive an extra sleeper each. The rationale of the plan is that each train has four sets. The extended number needed is five per consist set. (Yes, that leaves ten extra but this is Amtrak math.)

Proposed number of sleepers per consist: Silver Meteor - 4, Silver Star - 3, Crescent - 3. No mention for the Lake Shore Limited.

I still don't understand how it is that Amtrak managed to have a Viewliner on the Twilight Shoreliner and Three Rivers in addition to running the Silver Palm with sleepers just a few years ago. Didn't those last past the Heritage sleeper era? Also, the Cardinal used to get a real diner just a few years ago.

bostontrainguy wrote:

beanbag wrote:How old are the original Viewliners anyway?

From Wikipedia:

The prototype Viewliner cars were assembled at Amtrak's Beech Grove Shops in 1987-1988 from Budd components. Two sleeping cars (2300 and 2301) were built, as was one dining car (8400). These cars were tested on the Capitol Limited beginning in 1988.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viewliner" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

That only covers the original 3 of which only one is currently in service. The current viewliner sleepers were made in the mid 90s, i believe 1995 by Amerail in Hornell NY.