Viewliner II Delivery/Production

The Viewliner order greatly changes what is perhaps the most important aspect of what the assignments are based on: Car availability! The viewliners have to go somewhere. There are more viewliners than can go to current assignments+Spares. Whether that is the Capitol Limited, the Federal, The Daily Cardinal, or hell, the Desert Wind, they need to have somewhere to run to justify the large purchase just made.

Mr. Approach, while I note your comment immediately above regarding speculation as to assignment of the V-II Sleepers, speculation about such does not fall into the same category as speculation regarding causes of major derailment incidents such as Megantic. In that case, billions of dollars are at stake, as are careers, reputations, and even criminal prosecutions, all hang upon the findings of the investigative agency.

Assignment of V-II's hardly rises to any such standard; may as well have some fun at it, and based upon my two terms 'at the throttle' (Moderator) around here, there is nothing at this topic that I would have disallowed.

While I have previously made all of these points at postings, allow me to reiterate that the 55 Baggage and 25 Diners simply represent replacement of rolling museum pieces. If Amtrak is to continue Baggage service, and even expand capacity to handle bicycles, systemwide and to continue full service dining on the single level trains, those cars simply had to be ordered. Now regarding the 25 each of Sleepers and Dorms, it will take 18 cars to add an additional line to the existing single level trains. Save substituting a line on the Cardinal for restoration of a BOS-WAS Sleeper line, there is no room for additional Sleeper service. So all this chatter about a single level Capitol Limited/Pennsylvanian, a single level City extended to JAX will just have to wait until our elected officials on The Hill, and that guy (gal?) sitting in that big round office sixteen blocks away, choose to pony up.

Backshophoss wrote: The biggest need of sleeper space is the silver service trains,then the Lake Shore(both sections) is next . . . then the Montrealer if restarted . . . maybe(NEC overnight)trains 66/67 can finally get their sleepers back.

Yes, a great opportunity to really shine here with new "super consists".

How about an upgraded Lake Shore Limited and Silver Meteor using the same consists. It would leave Chicago three hours earlier with two diners and five-six sleepers. One diner goes to New York and the other to Boston. They overnight in each city and then the Boston section heads down the NEC to become the new Boston section of the Silver Meteor. They are rejoined in New York and continue south as a super Silver Meteor again with two diners and five-six sleepers. In Jacksonville, half of the train heads to Tampa and the other half heads down the coast on FEC to Miami.

As far as the Montrealer, with the speed-up coming do you think that the existing Vermonter would just be extended to Montreal or revert to an overnight sleeper service?

And as far as the 66/67 "Twilight Shoreliner"/"Night Owl" (?) . . . should Amtrak consider running it to Norfolk instead of Newport News? North of the bay the population of Newport News/Hampton is 318,436 and on the other side Norfolk/Portsmouth/Chesapeake/Virginia Beach is 998,541. Three times the population!

electricron wrote:

mtuandrew wrote:Well, I was going to suggest swapping the single-level cars on the Cardinal (plus some) for the Superliners on the Cap, an changing their respective termini to fit. Presto, a daily Cardinal and a single-level Cap with Pennsylvanian run-through capability.

Since the Capital Limited would not be going to the US capital anymore, what would you rename it, the Broadway Limited? Are there any low clearances on the Cardinal route that would eliminate Superliners, assuming it's new eastern terminus is D.C.? What do you propose to service the cities and towns between Pittsburgh and D.C. after diverting the Capital Limited away? I'm sure western Maryland will raise some political opposition for loss of service. Are we really saving equipment, or using more with this latest proposal?

Sorry, I should have been more clear - swap the single-level equipment on the Cardinal for Superliners, and make the Card's endpoint Washington Union Station. Use that single-level equipment plus some of the new Viewliners (if there will be enough) to extend the Capitol Limited's route from Washington to New York Penn, not reroute it as I think you assumed. This keeps a Superliner-equipped train going to the East Coast to swap equipment off the Auto Train, still allows for equipment transfers from Beech Grove, and provides about enough equipment from the Cap pool to make the Cardinal daily. The Capitol Limited would be able to exchange cars with the Pennsylvanian to create a direct Broadway Limited connection, but would also itself reach New York after hitting Washington. Instead of the Cardinal being the clean-up train, it would put the more direct and faster Capitol Limited in that position.

Apologies to the mods for getting off the topic. My main point is that an influx of Viewliners may mean a bit more flexibility to swap train sets and use them in a (potentially) more efficient way.

Mr. Stephens, in a more perfect world returning 48, Lake Shore, to something resembling an overnight train, say the NYC Pacemaker, and having #30, Capitol Limited, became the late departure 'clean up' train would make sense. I just might resume riding the Lake Shore for some of my trips out East to the NY area rather than flying as I do nowadays.

But we must address that Wash Union Station has become a mite bit busier with MARC and VRE commuter trains since the B&O last ran The Shenandoah (late evening Chi departure), and to handle an arriving Long Distance train during rush hour simply could prove burdensome to WTC facilities.

Mod Note: Speculation is fun, but please try to disclaim one of the following:

1. Speculation - using little facts but coming up with ideas that honestly sound good from your perspective
2. Conjecture - using some facts to arrive at an educated conclusion
3. Policy and Plans - something the railroad plans to do or likely plans to do, whether funded or not. Citing a source goes a long way for credibility.

I ask this because speculation is fun, but it confuses people. Enjoy yourself and go for it, but just let us know. We've had some good discussion but some of the speculation here directly contradicts what an insider here has told us, which is kind of silly. That said, insiders are not always right and plans change. Please just let us know if you're speculating or discussing facts.

Thanks guys and be safe out there!

I would like to point out that Amtrak does not need the Capitol Limited to shuttle cars for Auto Train, Auto Train has its own shops in Sanford, which can perform all maintenance, save wreck repair, which would probably get sent to BG as a hospital train anyway. Also LDs NEC running times are 45 minutes longer than Regionals which LDs should soon be able to beat with their fewer stops and equal top speeds. Also for those speculating, there will be 21 Viewliner diners available if we assume 80% utilization because of the VI diner, Indianapolis. Just food for thought.
Cheers,
Nick

bostontrainguy wrote: And as far as the 66/67 "Twilight Shoreliner"/"Night Owl" (?) . . . should Amtrak consider running it to Norfolk instead of Newport News? North of the bay the population of Newport News/Hampton is 318,436 and on the other side Norfolk/Portsmouth/Chesapeake/Virginia Beach is 998,541. Three times the population!

Is the platform at the new Norfolk station long enough for this? I don't know how long the 66/67 consist is/will be.

66/67 is well patronized out of Williamsburg, so I'm sure a bunch of folks would miss it!

Gilbert B Norman wrote: While I have previously made all of these points at postings, allow me to reiterate that the 55 Baggage and 25 Diners simply represent replacement of rolling museum pieces. If Amtrak is to continue Baggage service, and even expand capacity to handle bicycles, systemwide and to continue full service dining on the single level trains, those cars simply had to be ordered. Now regarding the 25 each of Sleepers and Dorms, it will take 18 cars to add an additional line to the existing single level trains. Save substituting a line on the Cardinal for restoration of a BOS-WAS Sleeper line, there is no room for additional Sleeper service. So all this chatter about a single level Capitol Limited/Pennsylvanian, a single level City extended to JAX will just have to wait until our elected officials on The Hill, and that guy (gal?) sitting in that big round office sixteen blocks away, choose to pony up.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't Amtrak currently have fewer than 25 diners (I want to say 16?) for the single-level fleet. I believe this results in a diner expansion also.

Also, as for having "protect" cars, I think that depends on how one looks at it. Do you need a minimum percentage, or minimum number? For example, you pretty much need at least one protect sleeper at NYC at all times. So with a 50 car fleet, that's 2% of your fleet. Add up other protect cars and cars out for service and you're easily over 10% of your fleet unavailable.

But if you have 75 sleepers, do you still need to keep percentage out of service, or can you assume that the number of protect cars doesn't really need to change. In that case you have a higher percentage of sleepers available at any time.

(I will note, this is one reason to have somewhat higher speeds for some LD trains. If you can eliminate an entire trainset requirement, that greatly helps in your availability.

Greg Moore wrote:Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't Amtrak currently have fewer than 25 diners (I want to say 16?) for the single-level fleet. I believe this results in a diner expansion also.

Mr. Moore, noting my previously mentioned 18 cars to protect each line, excluding two Diners not assigned to The Cardinal, that leaves 16.

If 16 is the number available for service, rather than the number needed to protect all assignments, then Amtrak has no spares and must resort to robbing an inbound consist - or simply do without (Sleeping Car passengers, enjoy your snack bar fare). 26 Diners (25 V-II's + 8400) is what is needed considering need for spares and shopping. Also remember, Diners have a lot of stuff to break down and have a way of needing fumigation more than other cars.

Again, I think the only train to be upgraded to full service dining will be The Cardinal - on its existing tri-weekly frequency. If 60 Mass believes revenue will be maximized with a second Sleeper line on the Cardinal rather than BOS-WAS, hopefully that is where the cars will be assigned.

Matt Johnson wrote:66/67 are well patronized out of Williamsburg, so I'm sure a bunch of folks would miss it!

A #66/67 moved to Norfolk would also miss Richmond Main Street station. But expanding to 3 daily trains to Norfolk is years away as VA DRPT has $80 million for Richmond to Petersburg CSX improvements reserved in the current Six Year Improvement Plan budget plans to add 2 daily trains to NFK. $80 million is not a quick project. The years of expenditure for the $80 million is FY16 to FY18, so it could be 2018 before NFK gets 3 daily trains. So any discussion of a possible shift of #66/#67 to NFK is essentially academic at this time because the slot capacity won't be there for possibly 5 years.

Now what might change the timeframe for 3 daily trains to NFK is that McAuliffe won the election yesterday. He has stated his support for transit projects and passenger rail, so he may seek to move more of the new transportation funds to rail projects to pick up the pace of the track improvement projects for Amtrak service expansion.

Greg Moore wrote: Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't Amtrak currently have fewer than 25 diners (I want to say 16?) for the single-level fleet. I believe this results in a diner expansion also.

Amtrak has 20 Heritage diner cars on the roster. Those 20 diner cars are used to support 15 trainsets for the LSL, the Silvers, and the Crescent. The 20 Heritage diners make for a bare minimum to support the current fleet with the Cardinal getting stuck with an Amfleet II diner-lounge.

People need to do the math. Amtrak is ordering 25 baggage-dorms, 25 diners to match up with the 25 Amfleet II diner-lounges in number. This is not a vast order that allows for a lot of expansion or equipment swap ideas that keeps getting brought up here. The order is clearly intended to support the current eastern LD trains with enough to make the Cardinal a full service LD train if they choose and provide some modest elbow room beyond that. Figure the limit is 19 to 20 single level LD trainsets in daily use with 25 cars of each type with the 8400 diner as an insurance reserve for the diner fleet.

A major constraint of some of the ideas floated here will be the 75 sleepers, up from 50. If the baseline is 80% availability, the 25 new sleepers will mean 20 sleeper cars to spread around the LD trains, a pass-through sleeper on the Pennsylvanian and maybe one each on #66/#67.

afiggatt wrote:

Matt Johnson wrote:66/67 are well patronized out of Williamsburg, so I'm sure a bunch of folks would miss it!

A #66/67 moved to Norfolk would also miss Richmond Main Street station.

How many of these people "out of Williamsburg" are from the connecting bus from Norfolk and Virginia Beach?

And believe it or not, the actual numbers are a bit surprising. Staples Mill Station is the most patronized station in the State of Virginia. Amtrak's numbers for FY 2012 are:

Richmond Main Street Station - 35,002
Richmond Staples Mill Station - 345,657

Ten times the number! But then the long range plan is to route all Amtrak service via Main Street Station anyway.

And you can add Petersburg on the Norfolk route.

Not being super familiar with the history of southeast Virginia, what I find surprising is that nobody ever connected the peninsula to Norfolk via a railroad bridge!