Article: VT: Passenger train routes may be cut

Those numbers are both surprising and interesting. I have to acknowledge a laziness factor here in asking questions rather than trying to answer them, but i wonder if you have information regarding just the VT portion of the route? We know that many more people take it south of SPG than north; what are the costs (and revenues) of running that portion of the route? I would hazard a guess that using your same decisions on what to include as operating expenses and revenues on just the VT portion would not show a surplus.


50 people- at perhaps the major station getting on the only train - with a capacity of 500? that doesn't sound too impressive to me.

50 is impressive for one stop on this route...of the station stops in Vermont on this route, here are your top 3:
(1) Essex Jct (station for Burlington)
(2) White River Jct
(3) Brattleboro

As far as capacity:
(4) Amfleets X 70 seats (+/-) per car = 280
(1) Amcafe/Business Class with < 20 revenue seats..
We're looking at about 300 pax capacity per train... a couple hundred shy of 500

Last month, one morning over 100pax got on at Essex Jct alone. We also put on some 40-50 pax a few days back in October in Waterbury (groups).

Yes there are days when the ridership is low, but there are days when it can be quite full.


Also, operation/expenses of the train south of Springfield relys 100% on Amtrak. If the train didn't continue to Vermont, it'd probably be another 140-series thru train SPG-WAS. Many pax utilize this as such, not realizing its origin/destination is in Vermont. Going into New Haven on the SB trip, most times the train is full. NB, she empties quite a few in SPG, though sometimes it isn't until north of Amherst/Brattleboro where you can get a seat pretty much anywhere you want.

I have taken this train many times and this train in particular is hard to predict. Southbound on most of my journeys we've entered Springfield (from where I've boarded at Essex Junction/Burlington) almost near or at capacity. Then you often have a lot of turnover in Springfield, only to fill the train back to capacity by entering New Haven for the ride into NYP.

Northbound the train when I have been onboard to Essex Junction/Burlington, this train has been full to Springfield and then is on the run to St. Albans picking up and dropping off passengers. I got off one time at Essex Junction/Burlington for the first time I took this train and there must have been at least 50 people getting off.

There are certainly a LOT of college students taking advantage of this train.

The Vermonter used to connect both ways at Springfield to the Lake Shore Limited. I don't believe the southbound transfer of the Vermonter to the westbound Lake Shore is doable anymore. I've done the eastbound Lake Shore to the northbound Vermonter (actually it wasn't the Lake Shore it was an Inland routed train from Boston to Washington - one of the last to be on the schedule).

I have seen people that have boarded at Essex Junction/Burlington bound for Washington DC (same day) or even further south to Florida etc. Then there have also been passengers looking to connect with the Pennsylvanian. Of course to make connections south of Washington DC or to the Pennsylvanian or Midwest, one will have to overnight.

Still, getting this train to Montreal (daylight trip or overnight) I think would bring a whole new dimension to its ridership pattern. Again, as an overnight train, you could have it receive or discharge passengers along the NEC and in Vermont at fairly passenger friendly hours (i.e. 5:30 a.m. to 11:30 p.m.). Then just have the train hold at Springfield for a couple hours to allow for such. If routed to Montreal Amtrak would likely be able to pickup a Montreal to Boston market - if the connection to the Lake Shore Limited eastbound could be made and there wasn't a long layover time (which I believe there is at present between the two trains). So one would probably have to go to New Haven in order to catch a NEC train to Boston.

And if Amtrak could work with the border crossing patrol at Rouses Point etc. they could have the Vermonter and the Adirondack share the same border crossing, perhaps even with a high level platform arrangement with a structure on the platform to handle any further questioning (similiar to how they handle the Niagara Falls crossing coming southbound at least. That way the Vermonter and Adirondack trains share the same border crossing. A VIA train coming down to/from Montreal to forward passengers further perhaps could also be arranged to help minimize or share in costs since now two trains would essentially be bringing passengers to/from Canada that currently don't get any financial support from VIA Rail Canada (Adirondack and Vermonter).

jp1822 wrote: And if Amtrak could work with the border crossing patrol at Rouses Point etc. they could have the Vermonter and the Adirondack share the same border crossing, perhaps even with a high level platform arrangement with a structure on the platform to handle any further questioning (similiar to how they handle the Niagara Falls crossing coming southbound at least. That way the Vermonter and Adirondack trains share the same border crossing. A VIA train coming down to/from Montreal to forward passengers further perhaps could also be arranged to help minimize or share in costs since now two trains would essentially be bringing passengers to/from Canada that currently don't get any financial support from VIA Rail Canada (Adirondack and Vermonter).

Not sure I understand. How does a train from Montreal to northern Vermont go through Rouses Point?

I noticed all the articles about the train service being save have disappeared. does that mean the Vermonter could still be on the axing block?

railaw wrote:Those numbers are both surprising and interesting. I have to acknowledge a laziness factor here in asking questions rather than trying to answer them, but i wonder if you have information regarding just the VT portion of the route? We know that many more people take it south of SPG than north; what are the costs (and revenues) of running that portion of the route? I would hazard a guess that using your same decisions on what to include as operating expenses and revenues on just the VT portion would not show a surplus.

Reconstructing ridership patterns on the Vermonter is actually fairly easy (it's a stub-end train and the only service to stations north of Springfield). Amtrak ridership and revenue reports credit the Vermonter with riders north of Springfield. In FY08, there were 72,655 riders on the Vermonter, or approximately 100 per train per day. Of those riders, 4,725 (6.5 per train per day) completed their trip north of Springfield, while the balance continued to or through Springfield. Here are the boarding/alighting statistics:
These can't quite be interpreted as average loads per train per segment, because they don't account for intra-Vermont travel, but they have to be pretty close. As others have noted, this route has a lot of variability by day and month, so some trains will be significantly higher or lower than average.

72k trips with Vermont as origin or destination is pretty good for a state with a population in the 600-700k range. What is the ridership trend relative to the same period last year?

Without having the time to do thorough research this AM, I'm curious about comparison with EAS (Essential Air Service) subsidy vis-a-vis that provided Amtrak, particularly with regard to VT (to remain on topic).

The EAS program provides some $839,746 to Cape Air for twenty-seven daily seats between Rutland (RUT) and Logan (BOS). The one-way fare appears to be $94.50. I have no idea of typical load factor or percentage of operating costs covered by the subsidy. Lebanon, NH (LEB) also offers fifty-four daily subsidized seats to Boston. Reported cost of this service through EAS is $2,245,669. The one-way fare is $69.50. Again, no idea of the load factor or operating costs covered. The extreme cantonment area surrounding LEB MIGHT include some people who would otherwise travel by train from Vermont, at least hypothetically speaking (although I am admittedly comparing different specific markets).

In other words (and hopefully somewhat on topic), a little over three million dollars is spent annually via subsidy to provide eighty-one daily seats for travelers who may wish to fly from Vermont to Boston. By the way, total cost of the EAS subsidy for the continental United States is roughly $137,700,000 annually. Those figures put the subsidy, number of seats and load factor on Amtrak through Vermont in a highly positive light, in my opinion.

The subsidies - both rail and air - provide some degree of economic influence and benefit. They offer alternatives for the traveling public and could, if properly undertaken, be part of a better-balanced transportation system and policy in our country yielding a social/economic benefit worth the price in dollars. Given the overall picture, I personally support the use of my federal tax dollars (it being a given that those dollars will be used for something) as a "contribution" toward the continuation of existing service through Vermont, along with intelligent development and growth of additional services.

Amtrak's daily seats, passenger count and number of communities served in the Vermont market demonstrate a reasonable (if imperfect) use of resources, at least in a relative sense.

If these thoughts are too far afield from the original topic, moderator please move or remove.

Bob

Edit for spelling

Here are the ridership statistics for the past four years:

FY05 49,864
FY06 54,273
FY07 63,299
FY08 72,655

As with most Amtrak services, there has been significant ridership growth over that period. In FY08, the state paid $3.9M to support both the Vermonter and the Ethan Allen Express. In the same period, ticket revenues from the two routes were $6.35M, giving a farebox ratio (from the state's perspective) of about 62%. This is significantly better than some other state-supported services, including the Downeaster and the Heartland Flyer.

Thanks for correction on capacity- i was just guessing based on an earlier post - it does make 50 passengers seem more substantial. Thanks also on the Vt origin/destination numbers. It seems we can safely say an average of about 100 VT passengers per day, plus intra VT passengers.

I guess the original thought I had involved figuring out if the VT passengers alone bring in enough revenue to cover the VT operating expenses (when what to consider as 'operating' expenses is figured in a way to minimize that number). It is fairly obvious that cutting frequency, even accounting for passenger revenue would save VT money. I wonder if that holds true when looking at the numbers in a different way.

On a related note, is there info on what demographic is taking the vermonter? I would guess that it would be college students and retirees - the only people with that kind of time to waste, i mean, spend, sitting on a train, plus a smattering of tourists. I wonder how the groups that use the train vs. those who don't generally impact the local economy.

On a related note, is there info on what demographic is taking the vermonter? I would guess that it would be college students and retirees - the only people with that kind of time to waste, i mean, spend, sitting on a train, plus a smattering of tourists. I wonder how the groups that use the train vs. those who don't generally impact the local economy.

When I took the bus connection from Montreal I think there were about 20 - but that early in the morning I wasn't paying much attention. I am sure the Montreal market could be encouraged.

MudLake wrote:

jp1822 wrote: And if Amtrak could work with the border crossing patrol at Rouses Point etc. they could have the Vermonter and the Adirondack share the same border crossing, perhaps even with a high level platform arrangement with a structure on the platform to handle any further questioning (similiar to how they handle the Niagara Falls crossing coming southbound at least. That way the Vermonter and Adirondack trains share the same border crossing. A VIA train coming down to/from Montreal to forward passengers further perhaps could also be arranged to help minimize or share in costs since now two trains would essentially be bringing passengers to/from Canada that currently don't get any financial support from VIA Rail Canada (Adirondack and Vermonter).

Not sure I understand. How does a train from Montreal to northern Vermont go through Rouses Point?

At one point when the Montrealer (now the daylight Vermonter to St. Albans) ran as a train to Montreal, I thought it shared the same border crossing either at Cantic or Rouses Point? Cantic was typically the Montrealer border crossing check point. Isn't there another major RR line that comes up from the US at Rouses Point that could some how get a train into Vermont? Sorry, the national network map I was looking at I guess was deceiving as it looked like both the Montrealer and Adirondack once ran over the same trackage around the border crossing of Canada and the US.

About once a quarter (once every three months) I take the Adirondack northbound to either Port Kent (if the ferry service is in seasonal operation) or Plattsburgh, often the later, and rent a car from Enterprise (who picks up at the Plattsburgh train station) to get over to Burlington, VT. Then after staying in Burlington - either on business or vacationing in the area, I typically take the Vermonter back southbound. Granted it's a long ride from Essex Junction/Burlington to the NYC metro area, but it's time where I can often get more work done on the train than if I were in the office! On both routes now I get pretty good wireless service to VPN into my work computer or get blackberry service etc. I also find both the Adirondack and Vermonter scenic trains through upstate New York and Vermont respectively.

Moreover, travelling southbound on the Vermonter from/to NYC and northern Vermont, one often has to deal with meal service in the Amtrak cafe car - often breakfast or lunch and dinner. Let alone giving up a complete day to travel to/from destinations rather than if the Montrealer was running on an overnight journey.

It would be nice if the long distance day trains like the Maple Leaf, Adirondack, and Vermonter had better or enhanced meal service (an Amfleet Diner Lite car perhaps?). It actually might work better on trains like this, but then you'd have an extra salary in the cafe car (i.e. regular attendant and then a cook or server). However, would increased meal sales offset the extra salary? For example, I was a frequent purchasor of the "Vermont box lunch" that was loaded on the train at Essex Junction/Burlington. The Adirondack also used to have a special "box lunch" of sorts - back when it was running with the specially refurbished Adirondack Heritage cars I believe. This has since been done away with unfortunately. The "box lunch" on the Vermonter, for example, was a little but more expensive, but it was at least more healthy and enticing than some of the Amtrak cafe food on the Vermonter.

Vermont has always been at the forefront of trying to lure "tourists" to its state. It almost relies on this for part of its economy. It would be a shame for the state to lose any Amtrak service. And as mentioned I think there is room for improvement and further growth for the Ethan Allen Express - extending its travel more through Vermont either north or south along the western part of the state.

There hasn't been a railroad route between Rouses Point and St. Albans since the mid 60's. As for customs, northbound the
Adirondack is handled by Canada Customs at Cantic and when the Montrealer was operating through to Montreal, it also was
handled at Cantic. Southbound the Adirondack is handled by US Customs at Rouses Point while the Montrealer was handled
at St. Albans.
Noel Weaver

jp1822 wrote: At one point when the Montrealer (now the daylight Vermonter to St. Albans) ran as a train to Montreal, I thought it shared the same border crossing either at Cantic or Rouses Point? Cantic was typically the Montrealer border crossing check point. Isn't there another major RR line that comes up from the US at Rouses Point that could some how get a train into Vermont?

Here's a map of the area:

http://www.proximityissues.ca/Maps/RAC- ... th_sub.pdf

The CN line the Montrealer once used meets the CN line presently used by the Adirondack at Cantic, Quebec.

It's not clear on the map but there are actually two lines north out of Rouses Point: The Adirondack switches to the CN line at Rouses Point and continues through Cantic to Montreal Central Station.

The CP (xD&H) line crosses the border but does not meet the line coming up from Vermont. It passes through Lacole, about a mile from Cantic. This was the Adirondack's route when it used Windsor Station in Montreal before moving to Central Station in the mid 1980s.