Article: VT: Passenger train routes may be cut

MudLake wrote:Why is there a clear need for this train to terminate in Montreal, especially when it makes a single-day run from Washington mostly impossible?

Because Montreal is a much, much bigger city than any in Vermont and a major tourist and shopping destination.

In pre-Amtrak days, the day train to Montreal via the B&M/CV route originated in New York. That could be done again.

Did all than many people go to/from Montreal when it was an overnight train?

I don't have ridership numbers, but in my experience, definitely yes. I rode the Montrealer a dozen or so times during the couple decades it operated, and the vast majority of passengers were riding to or from Montreal rather than intermediate points. Of course the predawn or late night times at most Vermont stations may have contributed to that.

TomNelligan wrote:

MudLake wrote:Why is there a clear need for this train to terminate in Montreal, especially when it makes a single-day run from Washington mostly impossible?

Because Montreal is a much, much bigger city than any in Vermont and a major tourist and shopping destination.

In pre-Amtrak days, the day train to Montreal via the B&M/CV route originated in New York. That could be done again.

Did all than many people go to/from Montreal when it was an overnight train?

I don't have ridership numbers, but in my experience, definitely yes. I rode the Montrealer a dozen or so times during the couple decades it operated, and the vast majority of passengers were riding to or from Montreal rather than intermediate points. Of course the predawn or late night times at most Vermont stations may have contributed to that.

Long ago, my grandparents lived in Montreal for many years before retiring in Vermont. I specifically recall my grandfather saying that no one (a little hyperbole on his part) in Vermont goes to Montreal nor should they ever want to go to Montreal. From my experience, people from the States rarely go shopping in Canada anyway. If the PEOPLE of Vermont don't want to pay for a train to go to Montreal then who's to argue with them?

I don't live in Vermont, so I certainly don't speak for the taxpayers there. But Montreal is a city with a metropolitan population of 3.6 million, more than five times greater than the whole state of Vermont, and a major tourist destination for Americans that is marketed here in Massachusetts and I assume elsewhere in the northeastern US.

TomNelligan wrote:I don't live in Vermont, so I certainly don't speak for the taxpayers there. But Montreal is a city with a metropolitan population of 3.6 million, more than five times greater than the whole state of Vermont, and a major tourist destination for Americans that is marketed here in Massachusetts and I assume elsewhere in the northeastern US.

My personal view is sending Americans to a vacation in Montreal doesn't qualify as "essential transportation" that taxpayers should subsidize. Now if Canadian taxpayers wish to subsidize this then let them but my hunch is they're no more interested in dong so than Vermont taxpayers are (or New Jersey, or Michigan, or California, or ...).

I have met many Vermonters at the Essex Junction/Burlington station stop that said they used to take the Montrealer as a day trip to Montreal and it was very convenient for them. They also expressed how much they missed it - even the station caretaker has said as much at this stop. I am always reminded of the Montrealer when I board the southbound Vermonter at Essex Junction/Burlington, and so to are many of the people who have boarded with me. Again, Vermonters used to go to Montreal as a "day trip" similiar to how people from Seattle go to Vancouver, BC for a "day trip." Granted it is a short day trip, but nonetheless if you are going for a specific purpose, it fits the bill. Many Vermonters, from what I hear at the station, also liked boarding in early evening and arriving in the morning to their destination of NYC or Washington DC.

I don't think the Montrealer was eliminated due to poor patronage, but rather because (1) the Amtrak Heritage single level sleepers were soon to be replaced by Viewliners, which were short in supply, and (2) Vermonter volunteered to continue this train as a daylight run. I wonder if they would have kept it as the "Montrealer" if it was guaranteed "x" amount of Viewliners!

Vermont has always been at the forefront in protecting its trains or funding its trains. I hope it will continue.

I believe the reason why the Vermont Transit bus connection from Montreal was dropped in 2005 was due to connection issues-the Vermonter now arrived later and left earlier from St. Albans, leaving a smaller transfer window.

Picture if you can cutting the Vermonter off at New Haven with no connection of any kind to New York. This is the present
situation at St. Albans with this train. Montreal has much to offer beside shopping, Sports, entertainment, theater and
concerts to name a few. I personally like Montreal even better than New York City and for most people in Vermont, it is a
much more practical trip than New York City is.
Noel Weaver

R36 Combine Coach wrote:I believe the reason why the Vermont Transit bus connection from Montreal was dropped in 2005 was due to connection issues-the Vermonter now arrived later and left earlier from St. Albans, leaving a smaller transfer window.

Yes, in 2000 I had to get to the Central Station for the bus at about 5 o'clock. Hardly any sleep that night. Any earlier would be even more difficult - though it was a pleasant early morning walking through the empty streets. But it would be better if it was a train.
At that time of the morning it would be easier to snooze part of the way on a train than on a bus.
The customs and immigration was at a road frontier crossing. Even then they looked in my suitcase. Of course the problem with rail crossing is that if there are only two crossings a day the personnel have to be transported to the place to meet the train. And if the trains are late they have to waste time waiting for it.

I specifically recall my grandfather saying that no one (a little hyperbole on his part) in Vermont goes to Montreal nor should they ever want to go to Montreal.

I understand the sentiment, but I thought this quote was funny, especially since my very first trip on Amtrak was with my grandfather from Essex Jct., VT to Montreal and back. I have a lot of family in the Burlington, VT area, and they are far more likely to travel to a destination like Boston, NYC, Chicago then they are to Montreal for vacation...but a couple of my friends that moved to the area after college make at least a couple trips a year to Montreal.

If we could develop RDC's, it would be interesting to schedule the VT, New Haven - Springfield, and LSL Boston - Albany segments with them, all meeting in Springfield for transfers.

You could also shave 20 minutes off the Vermonter run time by adding a cutoff to the northwest corner of the Palmer diamond. Eliminate the back up move.

You're not adding a NW quadrant to the Palmer diamond without a massive amount of $$$... you'd have to fill down in a gulley and probably start the track 1/2 mile west of the diamond itself, since the NECR line runs NW/SE.... its not a true N/S/E/W intersection. Last time I was on board the Vermonter in November, the direction change was accomplished in under 10 minutes. The combination of 15 miles of running on mostly single track iron on the busiest freight line in New England is the main inconvenience... not the reverse move itself. If you're going to spend the dough to build the NW quadrant, that $$$ would be better spent upgrading the Conn River Line.

Are RDCs/DMus/whatever the best idea for this route? Personally I don't think so... lots and lots of grade crossings which get backed up with snow in the winter. Today's P42s just plow right through with no problem. I've seen pics of RDCs coming into North Conway NH in the winter, being led by a diesel locomotive because they were "too light" to clear the crossings. On Valentine's Day 2007, we got some 20+" of snow, which the NB Vermonter just plowed right through with no problems, and you're not doing that with a RDC/DMU.

When I first moved up here, I heard from various people who missed the Montrealer, as they'd take a day trip, leaving in early morning, returning in the evening. Never did I realize before that it was that popular with that crowd. Now that I live up here, our closest city is Montreal, and many do miss the train. Besides shopping, etc, any sort of entertainment - concerts and such, the closest is Montreal. Heck, if there was a train to Montreal, I'd ride it... I've never been "over the border" but I've come extremely close.

I wonder how an intermediate solution of reducing frequency would work.... operating only Thurs-Sun during certain times of the year. October (foliage season) this year produced very high ridership at my local station. November is up as well. Maybe another solution would be to run only 3 Amfleets + 1 cafe/bus class, eliminate some of the local stops in Connecticut. Have a 400-series "shuttle" running on its heels to do the local business. Many use the train as just a plain 'ole corridor train from WAS to SPG. At least we only support the train's operation north of SPG.

I of course have no idea how much it costs for border crossing issues, but it seems to me that the most useful tweaks for vermonters would be to 1. change the schedule to that it's more practical to get around new england and to NYP, if possible (run times might prohibit much of a change, but i just don't see the need to be able to get from waterbury, vt to WAS by train in a single day); 2. add montreal service, if that's something vermonters really want; 3. not strive to make it an overnight train, or one that leaves/arrives VT stops at ridiculous hours - how would that be useful to vermonters?; and 4. cut midweek service if the numbers justify it.

oh, and these tweaks 'to help vermonters' just happens to be exactly what would be useful for me. how often are any of our thoughts and suggestions something other than that, I wonder?

MODERATOR'S NOTE:

We've moving off-topic from the issue of whether the State of Vermont will continue their subsidy to Amtrak.

Please keep your posts on topic, or we'll call this thread a day.

Rather than cutting the distance of this train why not decreace it's frequency. Have it operate every day but Tuesday and Thursday, or whatever day's it is lighter.

OR better:
Obtain a dome car and have it operate spg-sab

hi55us wrote:Rather than cutting the distance of this train why not decreace it's frequency. Have it operate every day but Tuesday and Thursday, or whatever day's it is lighter.

OR better:
Obtain a dome car and have it operate spg-sab

While scenery is good, its not great. The route isn't known for its scenery like the Adirondack is.