Amtrak Auto Train Discussion

Backshophoss wrote:CSX would say NO! NJ DEC would say NO! Lots of swamp land there.
Mr Moore,Superliners and the auto racks will NOT clear the LIRR 3rd rail.

That's fine, since I never actually suggested the LIRR.

The Cross-Harbor Tunnel is sized for autoracks so presumably it's not relying on the LIRR either.

But like I said, I think completely unrealistic, but a fun dream.

Mr. Backshop, DEP vice DEC , I presume?

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Gilbert B Norman wrote:Lest we forget, the Midwest Auto Train was a flop. It was simply too long a journey - and it wasn’t time competitive with reasonable driving (overnight hotel stop; adherence to speed limits). Amtrak wisely allowed their Indianapolis-Poinciana Auto-Trak to be stillborn, but EKG walked in and got burned.

The Indy (Louisville?) AT ran in what years (1974 ~ 1981 window?)

Since 1980 the number of vehicles registered in the USA has gone from 121 million to something like 230million...call it a 50% to 100% growth depending on how you count.

The population of Florida has doubled 1980 (9.5m) to 2015 (19m)
The population of Orlando has nearly tripled 1980 (800k) to 2015 (2.1m)

Annual tourist visits to Florida have quadrupled from 20m to 90m (up 4x) since 1980.
Annual tourist visits to Orlando probably quintupled from 10m (ish) in 1980 to 66m now.

The only thing profoundly unfavorable to Auto Train service in that time is, of course, airline deregulation. But given that *everything* about cars and Florida has doubled, and all the salient trip-generation stuff is 4x, it is hard to argue from an Auto Train failure in 1981 that a doubling of service can't work today (along some dimension, and, ideally one that'd boost utilization at Sanford).

Operations seem the problem, not market size.

Much earlier than that, Mr. Arlington. The private Auto Train operation folded I think as early as 1976; the Amtrak operated FloridIan-Auto Train folded before the end of the the former which went adios.with the 1979 Carter Cuts.

Your well-researched population date is noted with great respect for efforts and thoroughness, but I still hold, considering I've used it 22 times over the years, that "overnight is enough". Here to South Florida can be safely and lawfully driven in 20hrs. Throw in a 10 hour hotel stop, and we're still ahead of the Floridian's 38 hr schedule ("when I was young", I did it with that one stop. But now, I make two).

They don't want an excursion; they want their auto moved.

BTW, Voyage 23 is departing SFA Feb 6.

deathtopumpkins wrote:
Finally, I propose Worcester as a much more appealing location than Ayer for the New England terminal. Sure, CSX may not want to play nice, but the B&A is surely faster than PAS, and is more palatable to people who live on the south side of Boston. It feels less out of the way than driving north in order to catch a train south.

Why not use the autorack yard in East Brookfield? it's past the slowest part of the B&A, and it's just a couple minutes from the Mass Pike up rt 49.

I see a lot of discussion about an eastern Massachusetts Auto Train terminal. What route would the train take to and from there?

First the trans-Long Island Sound Tunnel, to a LI Tunnel to the Cross-Harbor Tunnel.

Just $30-$40B or so

The combined Floridian-Auto-Train started during 1977 and was gone before the former got the "Carterwhakkin" during October 1979.

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Spent this Christmas in central Florida. The traffic on I-75 between Gainesville and Wildwood was awful. 3 round trips on that section was in accordion type stop and go traffic both for this poster and the opposite side. No accidents observed. It may be that soon there may be enough problems on the route that an auto train might become feasible ?
Problem locations now for I-75------
1. The above mentioned route cost --- 1 hour extra each time.
2. Atlanta -------- From exit 203 to 290 you can expect any where of 30 minute delays to 4 hour delays. I know have been caught in it.
3. Chattanooga --- 30 minute delays
4. Knoxville -- 30 minute delays
5. Cincinnati --- 30 minute delays

Of course some judicious timing will eliminate maybe some of these delays but don't count on it.

How I-95 fares is unknown here

CharlieK wrote:I see a lot of discussion about an eastern Massachusetts Auto Train terminal. What route would the train take to and from there?

See my earlier post for potential routing. Suffice it to say that getting through the mountain country in Pennsylvania is not a simple undertaking.

Gilbert B Norman wrote:One negative of the present AT is that Amtrak keeps chipping away at the closing hour. It was 4P for the private AT (been there done that), with Amtrak, it was first 330, then that became 3. Now it's 230, and with such, a same day drive from the NY area becomes harder to imagine. On this point "know so first hand". Once when the closing was 3P, I left Greenwich CT promptly at 8A. By the time, I hit some unexplained delay on I-95 (JFK Tpk) in MD, I was getting "concerned'; by the time I got to 495 (Beltway) where it was "heavy and slow with stop and go", I was concerned to worried. When on 95 on the "last lap", a few too many had "dropped from their shop" at Potomac Mills. Now, I'm downright scared.

I got into LOR at 301P; they loaded my Lex and me. However, there was no time to pull into a parking area and arrange things, as I generally do. I grabbed my overnight flight bag (I've used it for as much a four day trip when flying) as that was all there was time for (phone and papers stayed in the auto).

Even January last for Voyage 22 was "a bit close"; I left the hotel (17th St Miami) at 10A, 95 was "Clean and Green" to Mims, but I got stuck behind a convoy of FPL (whoops, NextEra) vehicles on FL46 over to SFA. Eventually 306 ponies found an opening, and I said "whoa" at 215P for the 230 close.

Stories like this one are exactly why I think the Auto Train's future is as a 2x daily Lorton-Sanford, with the later section timed much, much later than the current schedule, to allow those in New York, New England, and South Florida ample time to reach the terminal, and an early section timed 2-2.5 hours ahead of the present schedule, allowing a crack-of-dawn arrival for those who need to drive to New York, New England, and South Florida after alighting. Certainly there is no potential for growth with only one frequency, since the train length is capped and the service sells out, and getting an additional train's worth of use out of the present facilities is the best way to get value from them, much more than trying to find a second northern terminal.

If you must find a second Auto Train route, I don't even think Florida is the proper place, since the choice would either be to live with the constraints of the Sanford terminal, in which case you might as well just run a second daily Lorton train and be done with it, or absurdly build a second Central Florida terminal nearby. I would instead look to an east-west route out of California. Barstow-Albuquerque is about the right length for an overnight trip, although Inland Empire-El Paso has better onward connections to Texas. Alternatively, a night-day-night schedule, with four trainsets covering a 1x daily schedule, could run Princeton, IL-Barstow, and have much better road connections to Midwest population centers than the Louisville Auto Train ever could. (Perhaps a similar schedule would work Inland Empire-Houston, but then you've overshot and have to backtrack for most of the secondary destinations in Texas, which means you have no time advantage over driving. And that's not even touching what UP would think.)

My understanding Amtrak picked Phoenix-Chicago as a potential East-West AutoTrain as thats a common "Western" snowbird route after a study years ago.

As for a 2nd daily Auto-Train on the existing route, I know its already at capacity since they can't add more cars due to the HEP distance limitation. But if both stations have arrivals at 9AM and depart same day at 3/4 PM, only other option provided you wanted to use existing infrastructure would be an interesting same day AutoTrain that would depart in the morning and arrive in the evening...which you know, could be done with coaches only.

That's not quite how the math works. Assume for the moment that the Early Auto Train runs exactly two hours ahead of the present schedule, departing 14:00 and arriving 07:00 the next day. Back at the first terminal, the Late Auto Train can get in no later than 14:00, but let's give the terminal forces an hour of slack time between trains to prepare for the arrival routine, or switch off shifts, or just in case CSX delivers the train early. If the Late Auto Train arrives at 15:00, then it must have left the other terminal at 22:00 the previous night.

A Daylight Auto Train could leave no earlier than 09:00 (with no more cars being accepted after 07:00!), which would put it in the opposite terminal at 02:00 that night. No dice.

I don't understand where in Orlando they're going to load and off-load all the auto rack cars for the second Auto Train? The Orlando facility gets full from the original train, there's no room for a second train. Checking out the existing Auto Train schedule again. https://www.amtrak.com/ccurl/830/430/Au ... 110216.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Train arrives at terminus station around 9 am (i.e. 8:58 Sanford, 8:59 Lorton)
Begins accepting vehicles for departure at 11:30 am (i.e. all vehicles off-loaded)
Motorcycles and trailers accepted no later than 2:00 pm
Priority Vehicle Off-loading vehicles accepted no later than 2:30 pm
Passenger boarding begins at 2:30 pm
NO VEHICLE WILL BE ACCEPTED AFTER 2:30 pm
Auto Train departs boarding station 4:00 pm

9 am to 4 pm consumes 7 daylight hours each and every day, a single shift of workers would have to work some overtime when the train is late.
A second train would require a full second shift of workers at both ends.
Let's say from 4:30 pm to 11:30 pm, or from 1:30 am to 8:30 am. I don't know of anyone wishing to arrive anywhere in the wee hours of the morning - so the latter shift is most likely mute leaving the earlier shift proposal the most likely choice for a second train.

And the last fact left unaccounted for is the route is 855 miles and 17 hours long. It averages 50.29 mph along its non-stop trip. Extending the train further breaks its 24 hour clock - requiring additional train sets than the minimum to do the job. 855 miles from Sanford towards Chicago limits the train's reach to Lebanon Junction KY at 856 miles, FYI Louisville would be 886 miles and Indianapolis would be 999 miles. Taking a slightly different route, Evansville IN would be 864 miles. And I'm not even sure an Auto Train could achieve the same 50 mph average speed along that railroad route because it runs through the Appalachians.

Anyways, whichever rail route is selected, reaching the Chicago area from Sanford is going to require more than two train sets, and therefore less likely to break even financially. The existing Auto Train takes advantage of just using TWO train sets between D.C. and Orlando. The Silver Meteor and Silver Star require FOUR train sets, twice as many. Any extension of the Auto Train north closer to New York City will also require FOUR train sets, and more shifts of workers at the terminus stations making it very unprofitable.

Yeah...for some reason when I was thinking of an "Auto Train Day Express" train, I was thinking of a 12 hour run time, which in reality, the Auto Train itself runs at a 17 hour schedule.