Amtrak Auto Train Discussion

electricron wrote:Anyways, whichever rail route is selected, reaching the Chicago area from Sanford is going to require more than two train sets, and therefore less likely to break even financially. The existing Auto Train takes advantage of just using TWO train sets between D.C. and Orlando. The Silver Meteor and Silver Star require FOUR train sets, twice as many. Any extension of the Auto Train north closer to New York City will also require FOUR train sets, and more shifts of workers at the terminus stations making it very unprofitable.

I wonder if the Auto Train "North" would work with a terminal in Rocky Mount, NC or somewhere in the Raleigh-Durham region. For an "all-NS" routing Selma, NC actually has even better access to I-95, along with a nearly ideal location along the rest of the Amtrak network. It is also one of the few sites that could accommodate a "joint" passenger facility serving both Atlantic Coast Service trains and an Auto Train. This location would also save the very worst of the driving on the East Coast while still allowing for a 24 turn over a single railroad (NS). A potentially more favorable routing for the railroad (if the Shenandoah route on NS is to be used to get to PA) would be to have the train start in Charlotte, NC. Amtrak's station there is also suitably located for redevelopment as a "joint" facility for current Amtrak service along with a "new" Auto Train "North". I admit that it still leaves a 7 hour drive to Orlando once off the train and on the road but the value seems to be there especially for travelers that are already accustomed to making 19 hour drive "straight through" from Boston.

It may come as a surprise to some but sightings of North Carolina license plates in Maine are more common than almost any other state besides Massachusetts. I would be very curious to know what the ridership studies would show for potential travel demand.

electricron wrote:Train arrives at terminus station around 9 am (i.e. 8:58 Sanford, 8:59 Lorton)
Begins accepting vehicles for departure at 11:30 am (i.e. all vehicles off-loaded)
Motorcycles and trailers accepted no later than 2:00 pm
Priority Vehicle Off-loading vehicles accepted no later than 2:30 pm
Passenger boarding begins at 2:30 pm
NO VEHICLE WILL BE ACCEPTED AFTER 2:30 pm
Auto Train departs boarding station 4:00 pm

Thank you for providing the details.

I like the concept of a 2nd run (move the current train earlier and add a late train) but one would need to work out a schedule where only one train is at an end at one time.

Fantasy rail:
The "early train" arrives at 7am (2 hours earlier) unloads by 9am, loading begins for the return at 9:30am, last vehicle accepted at 12:30pm, train departs at 2pm. Basically the same schedule two hours earlier. The "late train" could arrive no earlier than 2pm ... make that 3pm for some recovery time (8 hours after "early train"). Unloads by 5pm, loading begins for the return at 5:30pm, last vehicle accepted at 8:30pm, train departs at 10pm (arrives next day at 3pm).

Yes, two trains at the same terminal would require a second shift. Running the second train between two other terminals would also require a second set of employees. The savings of using a terminal for multiple trains would come from the expense of building a second terminal not staffing.

Leaving the current train on the current schedule would push the late train back to 5pm arrival, 7:30-10:30pm reload and a midnight departure for arrival at 5pm. Would that be better? If such a late schedule were used I would want to see passenger loading before 10:30pm (which adds additional hours to the train crew's day). Shifting both trains earlier makes it more comfortable to have passenger loading 90 minutes before departure.

Mr. Lurker, EKG thought of everything - and the AT Estate sold it to Amtrak for $1.

He did not want any potential liability heading his way lest there be an evening arrival and some of these 88 year olds who are wheeled up to the driver's seat of their Caddy getting into a "smack-smack" that was all Auto Train's fault because they scheduled an arrival too late in the day.

justalurker66 wrote: I like the concept of a 2nd run (move the current train earlier and add a late train) but one would need to work out a schedule where only one train is at an end at one time.

Fantasy rail:
The "early train" arrives at 7am (2 hours earlier) unloads by 9am, loading begins for the return at 9:30am, last vehicle accepted at 12:30pm, train departs at 2pm. Basically the same schedule two hours earlier. The "late train" could arrive no earlier than 2pm ... make that 3pm for some recovery time (8 hours after "early train"). Unloads by 5pm, loading begins for the return at 5:30pm, last vehicle accepted at 8:30pm, train departs at 10pm (arrives next day at 3pm).

Yes, two trains at the same terminal would require a second shift. Running the second train between two other terminals would also require a second set of employees. The savings of using a terminal for multiple trains would come from the expense of building a second terminal not staffing.

Leaving the current train on the current schedule would push the late train back to 5pm arrival, 7:30-10:30pm reload and a midnight departure for arrival at 5pm. Would that be better? If such a late schedule were used I would want to see passenger loading before 10:30pm (which adds additional hours to the train crew's day). Shifting both trains earlier makes it more comfortable to have passenger loading 90 minutes before departure.

Your two hours earlier scheme would be better - but still lousy - customer experience. Imagine getting off the train at 7 am, where would you eat breakfast? There's certainly not enough time to do so aboard the train, so now your passenger terminal will have to have the ability to sit and serve breakfast to all the passengers waiting for their cars to be off-loaded. You'll also will have to provide lunch for all the passengers waiting to board the train after dropping off their cars too. On the good side, you'll only have to serve dinner on the train.
The later train also runs into difficultlties with food too. With the late departure, you'll have to find a way to serve dinner to passengers waiting to board the train. You'll have to serve breakfast and lunch on the train. You'll also will have to serve some dinners to all the passengers waiting for their cars.
Now you poor overworked staff at the terminals will have to serve breakfast, lunch, and dinner over two extended shifts.
As it is today, the staff at the terminal only has to provide lunch - sandwiches, chips or fries, and a ice cold drink to just the earliest arriving to board the train and latest departing alighting passengers - if at all.
There's valid reasons why the Auto Train schedule 24 hour clock is set where it is at.

gokeefe wrote: I wonder if the Auto Train "North" would work with a terminal in Rocky Mount, NC or somewhere in the Raleigh-Durham region. For an "all-NS" routing Selma, NC actually has even better access to I-95, along with a nearly ideal location along the rest of the Amtrak network. It is also one of the few sites that could accommodate a "joint" passenger facility serving both Atlantic Coast Service trains and an Auto Train. This location would also save the very worst of the driving on the East Coast while still allowing for a 24 turn over a single railroad (NS). A potentially more favorable routing for the railroad (if the Shenandoah route on NS is to be used to get to PA) would be to have the train start in Charlotte, NC. Amtrak's station there is also suitably located for redevelopment as a "joint" facility for current Amtrak service along with a "new" Auto Train "North". I admit that it still leaves a 7 hour drive to Orlando once off the train and on the road but the value seems to be there especially for travelers that are already accustomed to making 19 hour drive "straight through" from Boston.

I don't think an Auto Train north would work well. The Auto Rack cars aren't going to take the tunnels of the NEC at high speeds, if at all. If Amtrak were to locate another Auto Train terminal further north, it'll have to be on a branch line off the NEC - either the Keystone or Empire Corridors, with the train heading west towards Chicago.
Chicago, IL to Harrisburg, PA is 730 rail miles over 15.75 hours, using the train schedules of two Amtrak trains to compute.

Maybe an Auto Train terminal an hour or 50 miles east of Harrisburg; how about Lancaster, PA; could work for a Philadelphia to Chicago area Auto Train service. Having the western terminus for this train in Gary, IN would drive the eastern terminus east another 32 miles to Exton PA, just 20 miles short of 30th Street Station in the exburbs of Philadelphia. This train could run on the same schedule I posted earlier the existing Auto Train uses. It would solve the Broadway Limited reprisal issues. But it will require passengers capable of driving to these new Auto Train terminals. It would also require Amtrak to find two fairly large Superliner train sets and Auto Rack cars. It'll cost a small fortune to implement, money Amtrak doesn't have. It'll be just over the 750 mile limit as well, so no state would be obligated to subsidize or finance it either. So, can we safely put it into fantasy land?

If you could squeeze just enough speed out of other improvements, I would put the AT terminal on CSX near BWI (Jessup or Dorsey on the B&O/Camden line) because cutting through DC has gotten harder by car and easier by double stack.

I just realized something....how did the Sanford Terminal work when the Auto Train had both service from Lorton and Louisville under the Auto Train Corporation?

Arlington wrote:If you could squeeze just enough speed out of other improvements, I would put the AT terminal on CSX near BWI (Jessup or Dorsey on the B&O/Camden line) because cutting through DC has gotten harder by car and easier by double stack.

Real Estate acquisition cost would be astronomical.

electricron wrote:Your two hours earlier scheme would be better ...

Not my scheme ... just presenting it again while working out the math for a second run. The current times work good for a single train - not so good for a second run unless both trains can be in the station at the same time.

electricron wrote: Your two hours earlier scheme would be better - but still lousy - customer experience. Imagine getting off the train at 7 am, where would you eat breakfast? There's certainly not enough time to do so aboard the train, so now your passenger terminal will have to have the ability to sit and serve breakfast to all the passengers waiting for their cars to be off-loaded. You'll also will have to provide lunch for all the passengers waiting to board the train after dropping off their cars too. On the good side, you'll only have to serve dinner on the train.
The later train also runs into difficultlties with food too. With the late departure, you'll have to find a way to serve dinner to passengers waiting to board the train. You'll have to serve breakfast and lunch on the train. You'll also will have to serve some dinners to all the passengers waiting for their cars.
Now you poor overworked staff at the terminals will have to serve breakfast, lunch, and dinner over two extended shifts.
As it is today, the staff at the terminal only has to provide lunch - sandwiches, chips or fries, and a ice cold drink to just the earliest arriving to board the train and latest departing alighting passengers - if at all.
There's valid reasons why the Auto Train schedule 24 hour clock is set where it is at.

Why? Why would they have to provide breakfast?

Surely we aren't actually scheduling trains around meals? That should be left for the customer to figure out. Besides, even if they're off the train at 7 am, do many people actually eat that early? I know I need at least an hour or two to wake up before I get an appetite. Just wait until you get your car back at 8 or 9 and then stop for breakfast before hitting the road to your destination. Lorton has a Dunk's across the street, and a McD's, BK, and IHOP within a mile. And if you absolutely cannot wait, the Dunk's is, according to Google, an 11-minute walk from the AT station (with full sidewalks, crosswalks, etc.). Sanford doesn't really have anything in walking distance, but they already have a shuttle to the town center, and every fast food restaurant you can dream of is located just 2 miles west where SR 46 meets I-4.

I've never understood the obsession with providing travelers with food. If it's important to you to eat at a specific time, bring food with you. Otherwise, eat when you have the time.

We've seen with the Silver Starvation that lower prices and no meals have been a better way of filling a train (and improving its economics). It is hard to show that free meals have ever paid for themselves, and I suspect that'd extend to the Auto Train.

If last year was indicative of where Amtrak Dining Service has sunk, I just might stop by a Subway in Sanford and make like I was aboard the Silver Starvation.

A bottle of Grape Juice would be quite handy - but I'd have that anyway.

But we shall see what lay ahead for "Voyage 23" on 52 (06FEB).

deathtopumpkins wrote: Why? Why would they have to provide breakfast?

Surely we aren't actually scheduling trains around meals? That should be left for the customer to figure out. Besides, even if they're off the train at 7 am, do many people actually eat that early? I know I need at least an hour or two to wake up before I get an appetite. Just wait until you get your car back at 8 or 9 and then stop for breakfast before hitting the road to your destination. Lorton has a Dunk's across the street, and a McD's, BK, and IHOP within a mile. And if you absolutely cannot wait, the Dunk's is, according to Google, an 11-minute walk from the AT station (with full sidewalks, crosswalks, etc.). Sanford doesn't really have anything in walking distance, but they already have a shuttle to the town center, and every fast food restaurant you can dream of is located just 2 miles west where SR 46 meets I-4.

I've never understood the obsession with providing travelers with food. If it's important to you to eat at a specific time, bring food with you. Otherwise, eat when you have the time.

It's the Auto Train folks, the train families with their cars ride to Florida on.
Imagine awakening at 6:00 or 6:30 for a 7 am arrival in Sanford or Lorton, then possibly waiting another 1 or 2 hours before getting your car - on an empty stomach! How long do you think the adults of the family can tolerate their children asking when is breakfast? And PLEASE don't suggest the kids will not be asking that question. How long could the adults last without that morning cup of coffee while waiting for the family car to become available?

At least on the Silver Star, there's a cafe where the adults can buy a cup of coffee and the kids a glass of orange juice every morning. But with a 7 am arrival in Sanford, even the cafe car on the Auto Train will be close 30 minutes before arrival. No coffee and No food both on the train and at the train station, makes for No fun, whether it's provided free as apart of the fare or at an additional charge.

Of course food matters, you will never see an entire train load of passengers packing the next day's breakfast to board a train. And if they had, it would have remained in the car they are waiting to get. It may not be "Murder on the Orient Express", it'll be "Murder on the Auto Train"!