Pan Am Southern / Patriot Corridor Discussion

newpylong wrote:Only a matter of time before the Vermonter comes back to the B&M. This was in the works supposedly even before this new announcement.

When the Conn River Line returns to form it would make sense on many levels and the folks in Amherst could easily get to Northampton to board the Vermonter via Peter Pan though the dreamer in me would love to see a modern day RDC shuttle service using the Central Mass ROW between Amherst and Northampton...I won't hold my breath on that one!

newpylong wrote:

NV290 wrote:And as people have already asked regarding NS supplying power for the PAS, the answer is NO. Aside from the Coal train power they have always provided, NS will not be giving any engines to the PAS. Pan Am will use their own as well as lease engines (Such as the 4 NS GP38's and the new Helm power)

There is no way in hell this will be the case... the ST doesn't have enough power as it is now to run the current trains. Do you think the NS is going to dump all that money into the physical plant and rely on the ST power to move the freight? I don't think so...

Hate to break it to you, but it IS the case.

NS's terms are very well known. The only funding they are providing is for infastructure. NOT motive power. The only excpetions will likley be for the intermodal trains with tight schecdules. But even that is not set in stone. They have made it clear they will NOT supply any other power.

The Helm Leasing SD40's are already starting to arrive. Plus they are going to bring some dead units in Waterville back to life. Combined with more money for upkeep of the current fleet as well as new HTD's, EOT's and radios on order, they will be able to handle thing fine. Even latley there has been little issues with power. Last i heard today there is about a dozen engines sitting in Rigby on the engine tracks.

You are correct. But I did not say they are going to be funding motive power. All I said is ST power is not solely going to be relied upon... get what you want out of that. NS power on the pigs, maybe on MOED in the future, and then you have the HELM units... that is what I meant. I wish it was the case that more would come. I would hate to still be riding in those junkers.

NV290 wrote:

newpylong wrote:

NV290 wrote:And as people have already asked regarding NS supplying power for the PAS, the answer is NO. Aside from the Coal train power they have always provided, NS will not be giving any engines to the PAS. Pan Am will use their own as well as lease engines (Such as the 4 NS GP38's and the new Helm power)

There is no way in hell this will be the case... the ST doesn't have enough power as it is now to run the current trains. Do you think the NS is going to dump all that money into the physical plant and rely on the ST power to move the freight? I don't think so...

Hate to break it to you, but it IS the case.

NS's terms are very well known. The only funding they are providing is for infastructure. NOT motive power. The only excpetions will likley be for the intermodal trains with tight schecdules. But even that is not set in stone. They have made it clear they will NOT supply any other power.

The Helm Leasing SD40's are already starting to arrive. Plus they are going to bring some dead units in Waterville back to life. Combined with more money for upkeep of the current fleet as well as new HTD's, EOT's and radios on order, they will be able to handle thing fine. Even latley there has been little issues with power. Last i heard today there is about a dozen engines sitting in Rigby on the engine tracks.

Here's 12MB application to the STB for the NS/PAR PAS transaction:

http://www.stb.dot.gov/filings/all.nsf/ ... 222478.PDF

Excellent read! Highlights:

- New intermodal yd at Mechanicville for "filleting" and "toupeeing" domestic doublestacks as Hoosac Tunnel clearance won't be improved over its current multi-level clearance
- Plan to raise vertical clearance on all main and controlled sidings to 19' 6" between "Luxemborg" MA and N. Adams to permit multilevel trains to pass each other. Should that be Lunenburg?
- New 11,900' passing siding at Pownal VT
- Speed raised to 40mph in most places
- Enable use of 286,000 lb cars
- Only 1-2 trains more per day projected
- Potential new interchange with NECR at Miller Falls
- PAS will use new auto facility at SanVel in Ayer (NIMBY alert!)
- NS to build corn syrup transload facility at SanVel in Ayer

Thanks for that info. So, let's get to work!

How soon could it be till we see the actual up grades taking place? (Track work, Construction at Mechanicville, etc.) Is there a known timeline for this stuff or is all still TBD?

I would be surprised if much of upgrading occurred prior to STB approval. NS/PAR are proposing that STB treat PAS a minor transaction with the following schedule:

May 30,2008 Application, related Notices of Exemption and Motion to
Establish Procedural Schedule filed

June 30.2008 Notice of acceptance of Application and Notices of
Exemption to be published in Federal Register

July 14,2008 Notices of intent to participate in the proceeding due

July 30,2008 Comments, protests, requests for conditions and supporting
evidence, including filings by government agencies, due

August 25,2008 Responses to comments, protests and requests for
conditions, and rebuttal in support of Application due.

October 8,2008 Service of final decision

October 22,2008 Final decision effective

The proposed schedule will permit the Board to issue its final decision before November 26,2008. the deadline mandated by 49 U.S.C. § 1132S(d)(2) for minor transactions.

b&m 1566 wrote:How soon could it be till we see the actual up grades taking place? (Track work, Construction at Mechanicville, etc.) Is there a known timeline for this stuff or is all still TBD?

Official word for the track upgrades on the mainline is as soon as the ground thaws in spring. Obviously no materials would be ordered, no new employees hired and no work would be done untill everything is approved. By the time that happens, your already into fall. So they would have little time to do anything. So aside from work to simply get the tracks up to 25 this summer, don't expect much else.

Although it's highly unlikley this deal would not be approved, in the rare instance it was, nobody wants to be on the hook to pay for materials that may never be used.

JIM SQUIRES, EVP AND CFO, NORFOLK SOUTHERN, makes some comments about the Patriot Corridor in this investment conference call. It's fairly far down in the text. At one point the interviewer, in conversation with a CN executive, refers to the "Patriot Quarter" and remarks it should be a "giant quarter". I have no idea how that got in there, but regardless, Mr. Squires comments are interesting. He seems very confident that the STB will approve the JV.
http://insurancenewsnet.com/article.asp ... 40af0dbc0b

I'm curious as to why the new joint venture doesn't include the section of the former B&M main between Mechanicville and Rotterdam Junction. That makes no sense to me.

There are several reasons for that which, when put all together, do make sense. First of all, the 10 miles of track from Mechanicville to Crescent (where the Rotterdam Branch cuts off) are owned by CP and Pan Am has trackage rights. That section was originally jointly owned by B&M and D&H, but changed to CP ownership in the early 1990's after CP took over the D&H. The Rotterdam Branch is included in the "Pan Am Southern" joint agreement with NS. But the route designated as the "Patriot Corridor" doesn't actually go to Rotterdam Junction. It goes from Mechanicville to Crescent and then to Mohawk Yard in Schenectady via trackage rights on CP. Pan Am interchanges with CP in Mohawk Yard and indirectly with NS via the CP conncetion to Binghamton and Harrisburg. One thing I'm not sure about is whether Pan Am Southern will interchange directly with NS at Mohawk after the agreement goes into effect, since NS already has trackage rights over CP/D&H.

Theres plenty of room for an interchange at Miller Falls.

guilfordrailfan wrote:

trainsinmaine wrote:I'm curious as to why the new joint venture doesn't include the section of the former B&M main between Mechanicville and Rotterdam Junction. That makes no sense to me.

First of all, the 10 miles of track from Mechanicville to Crescent (where the Rotterdam Branch cuts off) are owned by CP and Pan Am has trackage rights. That section was originally jointly owned by B&M and D&H, but changed to CP ownership in the early 1990's after CP took over the D&H.

I have never heard that Pan Am sold off the Rotterdam Branch. Do you have any supporting documentation, or could you post a link to any information stating that this is the case? I would be interested in reading that.

DAW

He means the trackage used to reach the Rotterdam Branch is owned by CP, not the Rotterdam Branch itself. That is still owned by Pan Am. The Rotterdam Branch is not part of the "Patriot Corridor" project because it is a connection with CSX. NS does not want to invest money into PAR so they can do more buisness with CSX.

Mr. Primrose is correct that there is room for interchange at Miller's Falls. However, the connecting switch and trackage between PAR/GRS was removed long ago. In fact, at least 15 years ago, a new signal mast was installed right in the middle of the former connecting track. On the NECR side, most of the yard trackage at Miller's Falls has been removed or is in derelect condition. The runaround track next to the NECR main is also derelect. So, while there may be eventually be interchange between PAR and NECR at Miller's Falls, someone will have to pony up some big bucks to make it happen.

Dick