LIRR Zip Cars

The U.S. Postal Department introduced the ZIP Code system and Mr. ZIP on July 1, 1963, about a month before the MP75s appeared.

Steve, most commuters couldn't tell you one car from another. I doubt that they had names for different types.

R36 Combine Coach wrote:The U.S. Postal Department introduced the ZIP Code system and Mr. ZIP on July 1, 1963, about a month before the MP75s appeared.

I stand corrected. It should have been this one: for the date you indicated. The ZIP I posted was of a later design.

Doc Emmet Brown wrote:I posted this in 2009 They were built in 1963 as the LIRR "Worlds Fair " cars.
The LIRR employees refered to them as "Zip Cars".
'They originally had dynamic break systems, where the older MU's did not.
They were originally meant to run seperately from other equipment, but after the fair, when the MU's were being fazed out, they ran coupled to other LIRR MU's.
Since they had dynamic break, and the other MU's did not, it was an adventure braking them while coupled to other LIRR Equipment.
In the late 60's, early 70's, it was a common sight to see an MU train made up of MP-75's, MP 54's, MP 72's, and the old double deckers all slashed together in a single train's consist.
Couple that with some of the cars still being Orange and grey with Dashing Dan, and others in the Blue and white MTA Colors, the RR ran some funky looking trains.

My understanding was that when the zip cars were coupled in trains with older, non-dynamic brake cars, the dynamic brake feature on the zip cars was disconnected.
I also was told back then, by dispatcher Bill Fauser, that when the zip cars arrived, the railroad ran a solid test train of them and, when the engineer tried to make a brake application, nothing happened! Fortunately, they did get the train stopped and no damage was done, but after that, they did not run solid trains of them again.
This is somewhat analogous to the MPB-54 combination baggage-passenger MU cars, which the PRR would not permit in NYP unless they were coupled to other types of cars. I gather there had been some kind of problem with their braking systems. And they were straight, old-fashioned electropneumatic brakes, just like on all the MP-54s/

My understanding was, when they were still electric coaches the dynamic brakes were still in them. The dynamic brake was removed when they were converted to push pull coaches. I could be wrong, but dynamic brake is not something that can be turned on and off, it has to be removed. It is in laymans terms an electrical field generated by the friction of the motors which is then used to brake the coach.During braking, the motor fields are connected across either the main traction generator (diesel-electric locomotive, hybrid electric vehicle) or the supply (electric locomotive, electric vehicle) and the motor armatures are connected across braking grids (rheostatic) or the supply (regenerative). The rolling wheels turn the motor armatures and when the motor fields are excited, the motors act as generators.

During dynamic braking, the traction motors, which are now acting as generators, are connected to the braking grids of large resistors which put a large load on the electrical circuit. When a generator circuit is loaded down with resistance, it causes the generators to resist rotation, thus slowing the train. By varying the amount of excitation in the traction motor fields and the amount of resistance imposed on the circuit by the resistor grids, the traction motors can slow the train to about 5 mph (8 km/h) (for a direct current "transmission" system; for an alternating current "transmission" system, the traction motors can slow the train to nearly 0 mph (0 km/h)).
If I am wrong forgive me, but I worked a few trains when they were still in service as electric coaches, and I heard Plenty of Engineers complain how the trains were bunching up on them, because of the dynamic brake in the zip cars in the consists. The traction motors and grids were removed when they were converted to diesel coaches.
I can just imagine the Engineer of this train of mixed consist getting.."kicked In the Behind" going east, with the zip car in the lead.

How long is that train? Every time I've seen the photo, I've counted 11 cars with a seperate M1 car on the end...

Looks like 11 cars, and an M-1 sticking out on an adjacent track, probably the west end of the M-1 next to it. Was a fun place to work back then, lots of different equipment, A lot of old timers that knew their stuff. Since Steam ended in 1956, This was only about about 17 years later, a lot of Steam Era Men were still working there. They could be gruff, but there were always a few that would take the New employees under their wings, and teach them the ways of the RR.
Thats the way it was back then, no micro managing, they let the Railroaders run the Railroad.
Was a great Place to work. Was not work when you loved it.
The M-1's were more comfortable to work, less drafty, nice warm cabs in most cases.
Same with the C-3's.
However, give me the old equipment any day.
Nothing better then a ride in the country on the old equipment, standing on the trap, and letting the warm summer breeze wash over you.
Sorry for going off track.

El Guapo! Si!

If the dynamic braking was not disabled when the cars were mixed with older cars without dynamics, how were the brakes controlled? I don't see how it's possible for a dynamic brake equipped MU cab car to operate electropneumatic brakes on other, non dynamic equipp cars in the train, while the dynamic brakes on cars so equipped were operating. And suppose there were two or more zip cars in a train, separated by older cars in between? And if an old car was in the lead, how did it control the dynamic brakes in the zip cars behind it? The only thing I can figure out is that the jumper wire(s) carrying the electropneumatic signal somehow activated the dynamics in those cars which had them. But the zip cars also had the electropneumatic brake feature, for stops below 15 mph, didn't they?
Anyway, one of the railroad's complaints was that the cars had an overly complex braking system, and that there wasn't one person on the railroad, or on the manufacturer's payroll, either, who completely understood how it worked.
Engineers had other complaints like poor cab ventilation, windshields that sometimes popped out (or inward) while running, and in one case a whistle valve that squirted a jet of oil and water into the engineer's face when he blew the whistle.
These cars were no bargain.

The INFAMOUS El Guapo!

With the aid of useless hindsight, some 50 years on, instead of the 30 zip cars, the LIRR should simply have ordered another 30 MP-72s and MT-72s. They were a proven design and would have worked perfectly well, with no compatibility issues with older equipment. Or perhaps the MP-75 carbody could have been used, but underneath, electrically and mechanically, they could have been MP-72s, including the trucks used under the MP-72s instead of those bouncy Adirondack Foundry trucks on the zip cars.
Another addition to my list of things that should have been, but never were (like re-engining the RS-2s and RS-3s with 12 cylinder Model 251 engines, like in the Century 420s, and designating them RS-420s, or installing roller bearings, nicer baggage racks and fluorescent lighting in the ex-B&M "American Flyer" cars, or purchasing 20 RDCs, as the railroad originally intended...the list is endless).

I had not heard about the dynamic brakes. My uncle was an engineer, and he said the composition shoes changed the stopping distance. This meant modifying the mark for setting the air, dependent on the number of Zip cars in the consist.

Didn't they also have a version of the 26 brake system? This was a first too.

Dynamic braking has nothing to do with the other types of cars in a consist of MU's, and is not controlled through jumper cables but within the cars air brake system itself working off the brake pipe pressure.

EM2000 wrote:Dynamic braking has nothing to do with the other types of cars in a consist of MU's, and is not controlled through jumper cables but within the cars air brake system itself working off the brake pipe pressure.

What does the brake pipe pressure have to do with dynamic braking, which functions by energizing the field windings in the traction motors, causing the rotating armature (which is not energized) to become a generator, turned by the momentum of the rolling train? The energy produced is wasted as heat in resistors. This is an electromechanical function and is completely separate from the brake pipe pressure.

Because that's how it works. Trust me, you don't have to give me a run down on how dynamic braking works You were trying to say dynamic braking is initiated by a signal through jumper cables. That's not the case. In the case we are talking about (blended braking) it's initiated from a signal developed by a brake pipe reduction through an pneumatic/electrical interface.