Finally New Walthers HO Amfleets are on the way!!

DUH! Walthers is doing phase II Amfleet I's to go with their recently released E units. That may be why they started here first. The San Diegan could be "completed" with one of the Proto Es.

That makes sense even though the same argument could be made for the Phase V P42s and the F40s

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.p ... 148&nseq=3

mlrr wrote:

green_elite_cab wrote:
Whats more, my books indicate through consists and photos that the train was run with a single F40PH, rather than any fancy locomotive arrangement.

When I say "I don't recall seeing converted cab cars in phase II", that is me saying that I don't believe there were any Ex-Metrolnier Cab cars in phase II (i.e. all overhead components removed which the first picture clearly shows is still visible on the roof).

was that not still a cab car? the roof details don't change its purpose. Perhaps it is an early rebuild? I would agree though, there would not be any "basic" Metroliner Cab cars with Phase II paint.

When I made the comment about a locomotive at either end, I was suggesting that Walthers assumed the modeler would do that unless that's how they ran pre-cab car. I've only seen the San Diegan in push-pull mode and I'm not aware of any location in San Diego where a train can be turned (although I do not rule out that possibility).

Well, they must have done something. Pre-1976 photos show SDP40Fs making the trip with heritage cars. Perhaps there was a small wye or something. I'm not so familiar with california's rail system.

You are correct. GK did not get the finalized drawings for today's amfleet. They actually copied the SOHO brass model which was based on preliminary drawings of the Amfleets and not the finalized version.

Note to model railroad manufacturers- Wait until the finished product exists!

As far as the discrepancies you point out, it costs much more money to be road specific. To keep costs down on both ends, companies made compromises by using one tool and painting it in various roads. Today it's less accepted and so we end up with more expensive models that are essentially customized to appropriately represent each railroad OR we don't get any at all.

No, no it doesn't. It costs more money to detail the crap out of a model, but it doesn't cost more to do a model right.

The New York Central and Penn Central U28Bs were offered at exactly the same time as the Conrail one. Remember, there were only two NYC U28Bs, and those are the same two that made it to Conrail.

They could have just used the same "NYC" shell with Conrail paint, and it would have been perfect.

But no, they decided to add a nose headlight for reasons beyond me. That means they had spend more money on an extra set of LEDs, and spend more money making clear plastic lenses that were 100% unnecessary.

If you as a model railroad company are going to go through the trouble to make all the different variations of a locomotive, at least make sure you apply the right paint scheme to the right version! Is that such a difficult thing to ask? Or does it cost to much to do a search on RRPictureArchives.net?

mlrr wrote:DUH! Walthers is doing phase II Amfleet I's to go with their recently released E units. That may be why they started here first. The San Diegan could be "completed" with one of the Proto Es.

That makes sense even though the same argument could be made for the Phase V P42s and the F40s

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.p ... 148&nseq=3

I doubt this, if only because they don't offer the E8s in the HEP versions. What I do strongly suspect is that the F40PH may show up again, since it is more appropriate for the amfleet hauled trains. I think the Phase I E8s were more so to compliment Walther's existing heritage cars in the Phase 1 paint scheme.

There really isn't much current strong presence of F40PHs out there. You might get a few Bachmann ones hanging around, and the Kato models are pretty much gone. In terms of quality, a re-worked F40PH as a Proto 2000 model would beat the Bachmann units, and since Kato seems uninterested in re-running its HO version, it would be relatively unchallenged in the market of "serious modelers" as some have put it.

SlowFreight wrote: Even later, more were pulled from the dead lines and turned into straight trailers, with everything stripped off and the end windows blanked when the diaphragm was added. IIRC, the cab ends were painted grey to make them discreet.

I have not been able to find any photos of these units. All examples I can find retain their cab-end windows.

And yes, the Metroliner and Amfleet bodies are exactly the same. Desperate to keep development costs down when Amtrak wanted new cars, Budd mounted a Metroliner shell on a pair of Pioneer III trucks, wired the thing for HEP, and created one of the most amazing and bulletproof passenger car designs ever.

Same styling maybe, but not the same. The Metroliners hit the rails 7-8 years prior to the amfleet. I was under the impression that though that Amtrak was pleased with success of the Metroliner's "modern" style (Its important to note that despite reliability issues, Metroliner MUs attracted a ton of riders to Amtrak). The amfleet was meant to be a locomotive hauled version of that same modern feel.

The windows and vents are definitely different. The passenger compartment is also shorter on the Metroliner than it is on an Amfleet.

green_elite_cab wrote:

mlrr wrote:

green_elite_cab wrote:
Whats more, my books indicate through consists and photos that the train was run with a single F40PH, rather than any fancy locomotive arrangement.

When I say "I don't recall seeing converted cab cars in phase II", that is me saying that I don't believe there were any Ex-Metrolnier Cab cars in phase II (i.e. all overhead components removed which the first picture clearly shows is still visible on the roof).

was that not still a cab car? the roof details don't change its purpose. Perhaps it is an early rebuild? I would agree though, there would not be any "basic" Metroliner Cab cars with Phase II paint.

Allow me to spell it out for you

9-6-x-x series. None of those incarnations of the cars showed up in phase II to my knowledge. I can't spell it out any clearer for you than that.

green_elite_cab wrote:

You are correct. GK did not get the finalized drawings for today's amfleet. They actually copied the SOHO brass model which was based on preliminary drawings of the Amfleets and not the finalized version.

Note to model railroad manufacturers- Wait until the finished product exists!

They have. In fact, Bachmann delayed the HHP-8 because Amtrak modified the roof shrouds.

green_elite_cab wrote:

As far as the discrepancies you point out, it costs much more money to be road specific. To keep costs down on both ends, companies made compromises by using one tool and painting it in various roads. Today it's less accepted and so we end up with more expensive models that are essentially customized to appropriately represent each railroad OR we don't get any at all.

No, no it doesn't. It costs more money to detail the crap out of a model, but it doesn't cost more to do a model right.

The New York Central and Penn Central U28Bs were offered at exactly the same time as the Conrail one. Remember, there were only two NYC U28Bs, and those are the same two that made it to Conrail.

They could have just used the same "NYC" shell with Conrail paint, and it would have been perfect.

But no, they decided to add a nose headlight for reasons beyond me. That means they had spend more money on an extra set of LEDs, and spend more money making clear plastic lenses that were 100% unnecessary.

If you as a model railroad company are going to go through the trouble to make all the different variations of a locomotive, at least make sure you apply the right paint scheme to the right version! Is that such a difficult thing to ask? Or does it cost to much to do a search on RRPictureArchives.net?

Please talk to a representative from any manufacturer yourself. Adding detail is the easy part. Regardless of what you or I may assume, there may be other factors that require new tooling and not just a modification. Anytime a manufacturer hacks up a tool or modifies it to do another model, that means that they won't be able to re-run the original model unless they plunk down money to re-create the tool. So it's not as simple as you keep making it out to be. Variants require more up front money as opposed to adding detail. Just ask any manufacturer. In general, the more uniform the production run is, the less the cost is to the company to have it manufactured. That's partly what contributes to the price increases. The market is demanding more road specific details not just slapping different paint on a generic model. As such, the cost of the overall production run is generally higher in addition to rising cost of labor in China.

Again, why do you think the MP36 from True Line costs so much? They're customizing it for each road (MP40, MP36PH-3S, MP36C) in addition to various differences in the arrangement of head lights, number boards and beacons. So there's an example of model that they are "doing right" and it comes with an "impractical" price tag. Nonetheless I'm appropriating enough money for 4/5 (all with sound) as I've been saving for the last 3/4 years, but I digress...

The MP36/40 production run addresses all of your points and proves mine.

I'm not familiar with the example you've raised so I won't dispute it.

As for the F40, Walthers still has its trainline F40 in its current production line (number 242). Pondered the possibility of a Proto release for the F40 but I think phase II being close to the E8 era, Walthers is leaning toward this phase first with its Amfleets. The timing almost lines up perfectly. HEP version or not, that won't stop modelers and I doubt Walthers is going to do an HEP version. With the exclusion of the Amfleet II, all the recent Amtrak stuff is from the same general Amtrak era.

mlrr wrote:

green_elite_cab wrote:
I've only seen the San Diegan in push-pull mode and I'm not aware of any location in San Diego where a train can be turned (although I do not rule out that possibility).

http://www.trainorders.com/discussion/r ... ?11,675207

Answer found.

green_elite_cab wrote:

SlowFreight wrote: Even later, more were pulled from the dead lines and turned into straight trailers, with everything stripped off and the end windows blanked when the diaphragm was added. IIRC, the cab ends were painted grey to make them discreet.

I have not been able to find any photos of these units. All examples I can find retain their cab-end windows.

According to "Amtrak By The Numbers" there were 8 Metroliner cars (2 coaches and 6 clubs) that were rebuilt with blanked ends in 1991 for Michigan service, becoming nos. 44550-44557. There's a photo of one in Phase III on page 92 of the book. I know I saw at least one in a Lake Shore Limited consist in Phase IVb paint circa 2002. I also looked online and found this.

mlrr wrote:Please talk to a representative from any manufacturer yourself. Adding detail is the easy part. Regardless of what you or I may assume, there may be other factors that require new tooling and not just a modification. Anytime a manufacturer hacks up a tool or modifies it to do another model, that means that they won't be able to re-run the original model unless they plunk down money to re-create the tool. So it's not as simple as you keep making it out to be. Variants require more up front money as opposed to adding detail. Just ask any manufacturer. In general, the more uniform the production run is, the less the cost is to the company to have it manufactured. That's partly what contributes to the price increases. The market is demanding more road specific details not just slapping different paint on a generic model. As such, the cost of the overall production run is generally higher in addition to rising cost of labor in China.

Again, why do you think the MP36 from True Line costs so much? They're customizing it for each road (MP40, MP36PH-3S, MP36C) in addition to various differences in the arrangement of head lights, number boards and beacons. So there's an example of model that they are "doing right" and it comes with an "impractical" price tag. Nonetheless I'm appropriating enough money for 4/5 (all with sound) as I've been saving for the last 3/4 years, but I digress...

The MP36/40 production run addresses all of your points and proves mine.

You two are talking circles around each other, but if you'll pardon my saying, I'm not sure you're talking about the same thing. Yes: better-detailed, road-specific, newly-tooled models are going to cost more to produce and cost more for us to purchase. But what Chris is saying (I think) is that it remains confounding how often manufacturers will go to the trouble of tooling those variations and then mess up the production by using the wrong variation for a specific road. I remember Athearn did it with their CSX AC4400s in the first Ready-to-Roll release. At these prices, that's the thing that's kind of infuriating. So the MP36 example is apples-to-oranges right now because we haven't seen the finished product yet. I'm not saying they will, but if TLT messes up and puts the wrong details on one of the models when they announced and made the right details for a different model, THAT'S what is ridiculous. There's no excuse not to get it right the first time in this day and age.

As far as the original Amfleet models from Soho/GK, I suspect that both the contour and vent size were taken from pre-production prototype drawings that were amended. And interestingly enough, despite a claim earlier in this thread that Walthers couldn't have fixed the vent size without all-new tooling, note that the Walthers Amfleet II cars from 12 years ago DID sport smaller and correctly-placed vents while also maintaining the wrong body contour. I'm not sure if these models were all-new tooling at the time and Walthers made a conscious choice to leave the body shape incorrect so as to match the existing Amfleet I model, or if they were able to modify the existing tooling for the Amfleet II variation. (Speaking of silly errors: Walthers' choice to use the black-on-white Amtrak lettering on the Phase IV Amfleet cars during that run was entirely bizarre to me. I have seen a handful of photos of cars that were marked that way, but the vast majority of both Amfleet I and Amfleet II cars in Phase IV had solid white lettering, as on the Viewliners, Horizon, and Heritage cars, all of which Walthers got right! [shakes head])

Either way, the bottom line, again, is at these prices, they should be able to get it right.

ajp31 wrote: As far as the original Amfleet models from Soho/GK, I suspect that both the contour and vent size were taken from pre-production prototype drawings that were amended. And interestingly enough, despite a claim earlier in this thread that Walthers couldn't have fixed the vent size without all-new tooling, note that the Walthers Amfleet II cars from 12 years ago DID sport smaller and correctly-placed vents while also maintaining the wrong body contour. I'm not sure if these models were all-new tooling at the time and Walthers made a conscious choice to leave the body shape incorrect so as to match the existing Amfleet I model, or if they were able to modify the existing tooling for the Amfleet II variation. (Speaking of silly errors: Walthers' choice to use the black-on-white Amtrak lettering on the Phase IV Amfleet cars during that run was entirely bizarre to me. I have seen a handful of photos of cars that were marked that way, but the vast majority of both Amfleet I and Amfleet II cars in Phase IV had solid white lettering, as on the Viewliners, Horizon, and Heritage cars, all of which Walthers got right! [shakes head])

Either way, the bottom line, again, is at these prices, they should be able to get it right.

That's what Walthers did. To match their existing offerings, they purposely matched the same contours BUT they fixed things like the vents. The development of the Amfleet II may have been the first time where Walthers may have considered re-tooling the Amfleet I but decided to go in the direction they did instead. Either way, the Amfleet II is a completely new tool. You can DUPLICATE elements from another model but development of a tool is a one-shot deal in most cases. You can't just go back and modify it like you would a kitbahsed model. Keep in mind to that these tools take alot of abuse so you need a solid master. Certain modifications deny this luxury.

ajp31 wrote:So the MP36 example is apples-to-oranges right now because we haven't seen the finished product yet. I'm not saying they will, but if TLT messes up and puts the wrong details on one of the models when they announced and made the right details for a different model, THAT'S what is ridiculous. There's no excuse not to get it right the first time in this day and age.

No one is comparing the MP36 to other models. It's not apples to oranges. It's an example of the cost of doing variations that pass on to the consumer. Check the link below. True Line has uploaded photos of the variations. I shared this in the MP36 thread earlier this year.

https://0553ec56-a-2430870c-s-sites.goo ... edirects=0

I've also stressed that Motive Power (the company that built the real things) has been overseeing the development of the model. They've been VERY involved in the process making sure True Line gets EVERYTHING right. That's also the reason for some of the delay with these. They constantly went back to True Line with changes. All of this I mentioned in the MP36 thread.

But overall, yes I agree, if the models cost this much and manufacturers are going to spend the up front money on road specific details; yes they should get it right and although I'm not making excuses for them; they're human too and their mistake doesn't mean all the money they spent up front will be partially refunded so that they can reduce the MSRP for us. The company still has to re-coup the costs so that they can develop newer models and hopefully one day (like we're seeing now with the Amfleets) re-visit the model and get it right on the next go-round.

Per Walthers in a customer service e-mail reply:

"Mr. ***********

Thank you for your kind words in regards to our upcoming Amfleet and Metroliner cars. While we cannot divulge future plans such as upcoming paint schemes, modifications such as modernized car ends for refurbished cars; you will be pleased to know that we have thought of every angle how to market these cars with minimal modifications to tooling.

We have had the Amfleet project (and I stress "project") in full swing from 2011. We did not just rely on blueprints but actual research in the field. Amtrak has worked very closely with our project team in designing the most accurate Amfleet car available (as well as other goodies.)

What I can tell you is that 2012-2013 will make Amtrak modelers from the rainbow era to current times very happy.

Happy Modeling,

*********** *****************
(female employee who name starts with a "J" - some of you may know who she is but I am witholding it for privacy reasons.)

Take that for what you will, but as stated, I take this is expect a good as hell Amfleet model, possible cab cars and other Amtrak models to be re-tooled. (Happy Kyle? hahaha)

Tom

Amtrak207 wrote:Per Walthers in a customer service e-mail reply:

"Mr. ***********

Thank you for your kind words in regards to our upcoming Amfleet and Metroliner cars. While we cannot divulge future plans such as upcoming paint schemes, modifications such as modernized car ends for refurbished cars; you will be pleased to know that we have thought of every angle how to market these cars with minimal modifications to tooling.

We have had the Amfleet project (and I stress "project") in full swing from 2011. We did not just rely on blueprints but actual research in the field. Amtrak has worked very closely with our project team in designing the most accurate Amfleet car available (as well as other goodies.)

What I can tell you is that 2012-2013 will make Amtrak modelers from the rainbow era to current times very happy.

Happy Modeling,

*********** *****************
(female employee who name starts with a "J" - some of you may know who she is but I am witholding it for privacy reasons.)

Take that for what you will, but as stated, I take this is expect a good as hell Amfleet model, possible cab cars and other Amtrak models to be re-tooled. (Happy Kyle? hahaha)

Tom

Just sent them an email about Comet interiors for a retooled Horizon. I suggested that the Comets feature a half and half seating pattern which was absent from the Gallery cars they did a few years ago. But, IMO only rivet counters would care about that on the Gallery cars. Just face every other car in the opposite direction so some seats are facing the direction of travel regardless of whether or not the train is being pulled or pushed. The Comets would be noticeable if that were done.

Maybe they'll model the frozen toilets and pipelines that used to plague the Horizon fleet

On a more serious note, I would LOVE re-tooled Horizon cars as well!

Tom

Amtrak207 wrote:Per Walthers in a customer service e-mail reply:

"Mr. ***********

Thank you for your kind words in regards to our upcoming Amfleet and Metroliner cars. While we cannot divulge future plans such as upcoming paint schemes, modifications such as modernized car ends for refurbished cars; you will be pleased to know that we have thought of every angle how to market these cars with minimal modifications to tooling.

We have had the Amfleet project (and I stress "project") in full swing from 2011. We did not just rely on blueprints but actual research in the field. Amtrak has worked very closely with our project team in designing the most accurate Amfleet car available (as well as other goodies.)

What I can tell you is that 2012-2013 will make Amtrak modelers from the rainbow era to current times very happy.

Happy Modeling,

*********** *****************
(female employee who name starts with a "J" - some of you may know who she is but I am witholding it for privacy reasons.)

Take that for what you will, but as stated, I take this is expect a good as hell Amfleet model, possible cab cars and other Amtrak models to be re-tooled. (Happy Kyle? hahaha)

Tom

I know who you're talking about .

I've been in touch with them as well and received similar feedback.

Walthers has the capability and resources NOW more than ever, to do Amtrak models justice; especially the Amfleet.

acelaphillies wrote:

AMTK1007 wrote:Knowing people in the industry and knowing that a projuct like this ( single car) the tooling can cost WELL over the cost of a SUV here is a realistic solution that I am proposing to those of you that are saying the pricing is not realistic..I say to you be realistic, you say you can't afford something, then don't buy it, and when it comes out and you find that it does meet your requirements or exceed your expectations, Hold your ground, if you said your not going to buy it, don't buy it... do the rest of us a favor and leave more candy bars for the rest of us.

I am definitely aware that tooling is very costly. I read once in a Rapido ad that it can be around $100,000 for one car! If you are talking about me, I never said I couldn't afford these cars, It's just that $75 seems like a whole lot for one passenger car. That's probably because of how fast the prices have risen in the last few years. Yes, I do understand that this is a whole new model. Even though I am not happy with the price, just like you, I am definitely going to buy some of these cars later in phase IVb.

AMTK1007 wrote:Also be realistic and don't go around saying I wish the manufacturers would make this or that. If you are not going to buy it, don't ask for it, that's just being, for lack of a better term, hypocritical..

If you were talking about me I want to apologize for coming across as hypocritical. Just to clear it up though, again I didn't say that I wouldn't buy any Amfleets but I did say that they were pricey.

AMTK1007 wrote:Am I getting as many as I would like? No, but I am buying them...

I think you summed it up really well here. A lot of modelers are going to buy these cars, but they are either going to have to expand their overall model railroading budget or cut out other projects on the layout.

And don't feel like your rambling I appreciate what you have to say.

mlrr wrote:If they came with working ditch, head, marker and strobe lights I'd suspect they'd be close to $100. Without, they could potentially be around the same price as the Amfleet I and IIs. All in all I'd expect these to be in between the Amfleets and Metroliners.

I don't know why but I feel more willing to pay that much for a cab car than an Amfleet. Maybe it's because you only need one per train instead of 5. Anyway I hope it gets done and I would definitely be willing to pay more for the lights and all because, well, how cool would those look?!

AMTK1007 wrote:do the rest of us a favor and leave more candy bars for the rest of us.

As for the following; sorry with all of this candy talk I couldn't resist.

I need to preface thses comments with this.. theses comments are my own and do not repersent the comments of any company or organization in the model railroad community. that said...

Once we get to the current painted cars, that is where I will get into issues with quantities... Tooo much to spend and not enough cash, if only because I have all of the P42's in teh current scheme, though I need a decent number of Horizon bread boxes for the Midwest trains...and I am waiting for the Superliners to show up in teh current plating, like the hi-levels

I was not refering to you directly with the comment about " being realistic", but just in general, because, i talk to people in the industry on a daily basis, and truthfully, this kind of reaction doesn't sit well with them... Understandabley. And another thing, THey don't like the pricing any more then we do.. they realize it is cutting in to their sales, but is it really effetive to rub their noses in it?? I personally think not.

As for a 9600 Series cab car... Even if it were unpowered ( that is part of theproblem with the recently announced metroliners, they are ALL powered on one truck because of the interiors, it's lot like a loco where you can hide the motor under the long -hood, Hence the reason for the lack of unpowered - (read less expensive) cars. Even with an unpowered cab car, i would not be surprised to see the pricing at about 100.00 if the include a full light package., and there is NO way that you are going to get every version of the cab cars, while there may have been 4 or 5 major versions, I don't think and 2 are the same... Just Like the NPCU's

Just remember, there is this perception in the industry that AMTRAK won't Sell.....I know in talking to people in the industry that it was a hard sell to get these Amfleets made.. Admiditly they could have made some better marketing choices in promoting the product, but supporting the product, will go along way in getting other things... Like maybe some Horizons!

Back off my Vestibule steps and stepbox and on to the platform....

AMTK1007 wrote: I need to preface thses comments with this.. theses comments are my own and do not repersent the comments of any company or organization in the model railroad community. that said...

Once we get to the current painted cars, that is where I will get into issues with quantities... Tooo much to spend and not enough cash, if only because I have all of the P42's in teh current scheme, though I need a decent number of Horizon bread boxes for the Midwest trains...and I am waiting for the Superliners to show up in teh current plating, like the hi-levels

I was not refering to you directly with the comment about " being realistic", but just in general, because, i talk to people in the industry on a daily basis, and truthfully, this kind of reaction doesn't sit well with them... Understandabley. And another thing, THey don't like the pricing any more then we do.. they realize it is cutting in to their sales, but is it really effetive to rub their noses in it?? I personally think not.

As for a 9600 Series cab car... Even if it were unpowered ( that is part of theproblem with the recently announced metroliners, they are ALL powered on one truck because of the interiors, it's lot like a loco where you can hide the motor under the long -hood, Hence the reason for the lack of unpowered - (read less expensive) cars. Even with an unpowered cab car, i would not be surprised to see the pricing at about 100.00 if the include a full light package., and there is NO way that you are going to get every version of the cab cars, while there may have been 4 or 5 major versions, I don't think and 2 are the same... Just Like the NPCU's

Just remember, there is this perception in the industry that AMTRAK won't Sell.....I know in talking to people in the industry that it was a hard sell to get these Amfleets made.. Admiditly they could have made some better marketing choices in promoting the product, but supporting the product, will go along way in getting other things... Like maybe some Horizons!

Back off my Vestibule steps and stepbox and on to the platform....

THANK YOU! I've been saying the same thing and it feels like its been falling on def ears.

This is what I mean by having a collective front amongst Amtrak modelers. Due to the (mis)perception that "Amtrak doesn't sell" we can't afford to be picky and finicky. We can be constructively critical and there IS a difference.

here is a radical thought for walthers to consider....we have had to modify, repair, repaint, redecal all our amfleets for all these years to get them as close to running and presentable as possible. the trucks were always horrible but we made it work or limited train legnth or added engines to pull the high friction load. we have invested time and money with additional detail parts and supported what we all knew to be a flawed model. now walthers will give us a prototypical, rtr, showpiece at a hefty price for what i have paid for my fleet over the years. how about some reward for the long suffering modeler who wants to replace/upgrade? why not a trade in incentive or credit of 10-20 bucks trading in your old fleet for the new one. it will encourage volume replacement and generate a lot of publicity and eyeballs for a new product launch. this tooling will run for years and it would be a win-win for all parties. radical thoughts for thought?????