Finally New Walthers HO Amfleets are on the way!!

mlrr wrote:
GreenElite Cab,

Please read EVERYTHING below which was excerpted from the "Features Page" page (I took the liberty of highlighting the significant improvements over the original model:

I can appreciate the "sticker shock" as much as the next person but how can any Amtrak modeler honestly say this wasn't expected. Every NEW passenger car that Walthers has come out with has been priced/treated like this. Why should we expect anything different, let alone the fact that they've been given the metal plating treatment. Also note that these are NEW TOOLS. New tooling costs money. Alot of money. We asked for these and we have to step up to the plate. If Walthers was asking for $100/car, then I'd raise my eyebrow. Why? Because it's not on par with the other passenger cars they've released. And don't fool yourself. Look at the price of the El Caps.

They're near $80. It would be foolish to call out the Metroliners as they're powered so you're actually paying for a locomotive, not just a passenger car. So when you look at the grand scheme of things, the new Amfleets are just about where they should be. They cost as much or slightly less than the new superliners.

The ONLY area in which I question Walthers' pricing on "new releases" is on cars that are completely painted and don't showcase their stainless steel finish. I can't see the justification in the pricing on those as there's no way for me to verify whether or not the metal plating is underneath the paint. Even if it is, I can't see why Walthers would go through the added expense. The only two reasons I can think of are 1) It's cheaper to plate everything rather than treat it differently 2) There's revenue sharing and the extra revenue generated per unit for the supposedly non-plated car that are priced as such go towards the funding of new products.

Both of those explanations I could accept as the prospect of new products always keeps the dream alive for the possibility of other new Amtrak equipment.

(I'm not begging but...)You'll have to forgive me if I sound insensitive when discussing these subjects. Even when things were "cheaper" I still had to take it in stride and buy things one step at a time. I had to plan it out and not only that but always have to get grief from my parents who thought that I was "out of control" with this stuff even though I had my own "checks and balances". I do the same even now (minus the grief from my parents) despite having more resources to purchase model trains.

Instead of complaining, use the lag time between the announcement and release to save up. Believe it or not (and I've said this on just about every post related to re-tooled amfleets) ever since Walthers retired the old run of Amfleets, I began saving up. One could even consider it a "trust fund". What I need to start doing is putting together a "trust fund" for the following possibilities:

I don't mind that the cars are new, but as some poster above have noted, manufacturers might actually stick to prices like these because "People will pay it". Besides, I'm not entirely convinced that all these improvements add significantly to the cost. I recognize that they need to make their money back on their R&D costs, but just because they created the proper cross-section doesn't necessarily mean it would cost more to make. To be fair, I can't say anything until I actually see the model. They can make all the claims they want, seeing is believing.

Even if all the costs are justifiable now, I'd grow a little concerned if things keep going the way they're going. I'm only a little irratated that you think i'm complaining. I think the way prices are going in this hobby are a legitimate concern.

Its not like I expect these cars to be $20-30 bucks, even $50-60 is not unacceptable to me, but at the rate these things are going prices are going to keep going up. The passenger cars are going to start costing the same as locomotives (which by the way, are also increasing in price with very little improvement to really justify said costs).

peanut1 wrote:I just pre-ordered a metroliner cab. I will not be getting the Phase III amfleet car and will be waiting for the Phave V release.

Before you get yourself dissappointed, these are NOT "Cab cars". They are electric MUs. If you want to make a Metroliner Cab car, you're MUCH better off with a bachmann unit. They aren't really that bad, and they cost MUCH less than the new Metroliner models.

I wrote that wrong, my bad. I call them cab cars, but do realize they are EMU's.

The cost of getting a model from China to US retailers is climbing,From raw materials,basic manufacturing,transport of container to port,
any port fees,and thats just to the ship! Next the ship "sails" from port to port,At the US port,Customs,import fees,port handling charges,
(off load ship,load to truck/wellcar). From the port to Walters,RR/Trucking Co charges/fuel surcharge. IF from RR, drayage charge to walters,fuel surcharge.
From Walters to you/your local hobby shop,shipping charge/fuel surcharge
That where some of the $$$ goes!
Some of the rest goes to R+D,Tool/Die making, Overseer in China(at manufactuer's factory).
What little $ is left,keeps walters/local hobby shop running!

Everbody from Walters to Wal-Mart goes thru the same drill.

Right now I'm really torn. As much as I'm thrilled about new amfleets I feel the exact opposite about the price tag. Like many others have already said they will most likely be extremely acurate, but does $75 a pop jusify this? This seems to be the general theme. I also tend to wonder if these higher prices are coming back to bite Walthers. I'm sure that when the prices were lower much more cars were sold. Does the significant price rise cover the loss in the amount of individual cars sold? I guess we'll just have to see what happens.

The bottom line is that I find the sticker shock to be funny. This should have been expected given the MSRP of the other models with the same treatment have been going for. Why would Amtrak stuff be any different, ESPECIALLY when there's this stigma out there that "Amtrak doesn't sell"? (That's BS BTW). Combine that with the price increases Walthers has implemented over the last few years and it fall right in line. I'm not saying that I like it, but I understand. Many come off as sounding like conspiracy theorist who think these companies are arbitrarily charging what they want to screw us modelers over. The manufacturers know they'd be nothing without us and so they'll do everything they can to try and keep us happy while staying in business.

Realistically, Amtrak modeling is NOT mainstream in the model railroading world but has enough of a following to justify the R&D of Amtrak equipment.

Greenelitecab,

No one is saying that yours and others concern about rising prices isn't a legitimate concern but it's not as simple as you and others are making it out to be. Your Walthers, Rapido (to a certain extent since they own their facilities), Atlas, Athearn, ExactRail, etc. are all getting screwed as well because they rely on other parties who demand more compensation in addition to other factors others have mentioned. If these companies kept things the same, price wise, there'd be little to choose from. You might even say, the way things are going is why we actually have Re-tooled Amfleets coming. All of these manufacturers would love to keep the price steady because in a perfect world, as incomes rise, people can buy more, justifying higher production quantities, reducing the cost per unit to the manufacture and making a profit on the difference between the "steady" MSRP and the cost to manufacture a single unit. You'll be surprised how much manufacturers allow their rising costs eat into their profit margins before they announce price increases. I doubt many of us (not in the business) would be willing to do the same.

The cost of new tooling for a more accurate cross-section TODAY, is WAY more expensive than acquiring the tooling that Walthers had from American GK. So of course the price is going to be higher because Walthers put its own resources in from the ground up. The tooling cost and the price in which they would have to list the products combined with the sentiment demonstrated on these forums is exactly why Walthers has been slow/reluctant to actively pursue TRUE Amtrak California and Surfliner Cars (NOT THE REPAINTED SUPERLINERS).

All I'm saying is that unless we can offer a PRACTICAL, INNOVATIVE, ORIGINAL solution to the way things are going, we need to just suck it up and adjust accordingly. If we can't afford the new Amfleets, stick with the older Walthers or Bachmanns. If you really want these, come up with a strategy on how to acquire what you want.

As much as I wanted to ,I decided as of right now not to get these new amfleet cars as their to much. If and when they do Phase V they will probably run the same price if not more. Hopefully the price isn't to bad. Those are the cars that would fit in on my layout into the scheme I am running. Theirs still a possibility I get these Phase III cars however.

peanut1 wrote:As much as I wanted to ,I decided as of right now not to get these new amfleet cars as their to much. If and when they do Phase V they will probably run the same price if not more. Hopefully the price isn't to bad.

Keep in mind that in less than three years the price of the new plated superliners jumped from $50/car to $70+/car. Just food for thought.

This stuff isn't getting any cheaper. Unfortunately, model railroading is not like electronics where if you just wait, the prices will come down. It used to be that way before the business practices changed. Now waiting will only run you a higher risk that you don't get what you want. I have learned that the hard way and have paid the price (literally) as a result. Fortunately I've been able to make up for it but not without taking my bumps and bruises along the way.

In today's model railroading you either jump on it (shopping for the best bargain) when released or spend a great deal of time searching for the item later and even then you probably won't save much and if it's a limited run item, that's a whole different story.

Just because they got their tooling from American GK didn't make the cars that much cheaper. What about the Horizon fleet cars that came out around the same time. They weren't any less expensive, but they were designed by Walthers. I have to imagine that they also developed their own Streamlined cars, and yet those were not all that expensive a few years ago.

I don't doubt that the new amfleet may very well have more capital being put into it. I might understand that its a more expensive car than the streamlined Budd and Pullman cars Walthers was offering.

Hopefully though, these cars won't be super limited run. As was noted previously, it can be nearly impossible to get some things after it has been initially offered. I bet there is not a single Con cor MP54 left to be had at reasonable price.

mlrr wrote:

peanut1 wrote:As much as I wanted to ,I decided as of right now not to get these new amfleet cars as their to much. If and when they do Phase V they will probably run the same price if not more. Hopefully the price isn't to bad.

Keep in mind that in less than three years the price of the new plated superliners jumped from $50/car to $70+/car. Just food for thought.

This stuff isn't getting any cheaper. Unfortunately, model railroading is not like electronics where if you just wait, the prices will come down. It used to be that way before the business practices changed. Now waiting will only run you a higher risk that you don't get what you want. I have learned that the hard way and have paid the price (literally) as a result. Fortunately I've been able to make up for it but not without taking my bumps and bruises along the way.

In today's model railroading you either jump on it (shopping for the best bargain) when released or spend a great deal of time searching for the item later and even then you probably won't save much and if it's a limited run item, that's a whole different story.

So far I've seen this car for as low as $61.00, still have to pay shipping and handling cost though =(

green_elite_cab wrote:Just because they got their tooling from American GK didn't make the cars that much cheaper. What about the Horizon fleet cars that came out around the same time. They weren't any less expensive, but they were designed by Walthers. I have to imagine that they also developed their own Streamlined cars, and yet those were not all that expensive a few years ago.

I don't doubt that the new amfleet may very well have more capital being put into it. I might understand that its a more expensive car than the streamlined Budd and Pullman cars Walthers was offering.

Hopefully though, these cars won't be super limited run. As was noted previously, it can be nearly impossible to get some things after it has been initially offered. I bet there is not a single Con cor MP54 left to be had at reasonable price.

Allot of those cars were developed back in the 80's and 90's when it was cheaper. Tooling costs have since risen and as you've seen, so have the prices. There's a logical reason for all of this. We don't have to like it but that's just the way things are.

One can not reasonably expect that development cost of a new model (with greater detail and R and D effort) to cost as much as it did 20 to 30 years ago.

Yes, but I don't think we should just roll over and say "oh that makes sense, charge us more". Its one thing if the price is 100% necessary, but the pressure to keep prices low should always be on.

green_elite_cab wrote:Yes, but I don't think we should just roll over and say "oh that makes sense, charge us more". Its one thing if the price is 100% necessary, but the pressure to keep prices low should always be on.

Considering the price of other new products from walthers, what would you have expected these new more detailed (Metal plated) and prototypically correct cars to cost?

No one is "rolling over" with these prices. Folks may suck it up but it doesn't mean they like it.

For what it's what worth, IMO these prices may have been expected, or even somewhat justified, but they are not practical.

acelaphillies wrote:For what it's what worth, IMO these prices may have been expected, or even somewhat justified, but they are not practical.

exactly! especially when you consider that everything is "limited run" so if you DON'T empty your wallet right now, your chances of acquiring the models are slim.

If you want to say "oh, save up and buy them one at a time" the price is only half the problem. within a few months, I'll bet Walthers will sell out, and by this time next year they will be "Discontinuing" Phase I Amfleet Is and Phase III Amfleet IIs.

Its a big mess.

Just call it what it is. It's not that the prices aren't practical. They're [/u]UNDESIREABLE[/u]. Big difference. Offer some "Practical" solutions to address the pricing...

Now if these cars were like $100/car while the other stuff was around $70 (+ or -) then I'd be extremely vocal about that but since it falls in line with everything else, I could only be put off to a certain point. But let's be real, an irrational person can label ANYTHING "impractical". You have to look at it from a balanced perspective.

Just go on Walthers website and look at the trend of products beyond just the price increases. Walthers has had two (at least) across-the-board general price increases since they started plating their passenger cars.

When Walthers did the phase IVb equipment for Amtrak, they didn't charge any more than what the prices were (excluding the general price increases) as they were not tooled any differently than when they were first released. That was existing tooling with the most expensive of them being the cars with interiors (my only "gripe" was that the baggage cars cost as much as the diner despite having no interior).

Breakdown the improvements to the Amfleet:

New Tool (Body, window inserts, chassis, trucks, diaphragms & bulkhead, wheelsets) - all that costs money
Interiors
Factory installed grab irons
Plating

That all costs. But lets look at a more apples to apples comparison. Look at the Budd Diner-Grill. Original MSRP was ~ $45 (after the latest price increase from Walthers). Add the factory-installed Grab irons and plating and it now costs $75. For simplicity lets say both those improvements to existing tooling averages out to $15 each, per car. The way businesses survive, break even or make a profit, they follow a general rule of thumb (at least as a starting point). Take the actual, true cost of production and multiply by three. That's what you typically charge for work, materials, etc., so the actual true cost for those improvements (and this is just speculation and deductive reasoning without any access to the "real" numbers) would be about $5 each on a mass-production scale.

That being said; you can't compare these new Amfleets to the Amfleets of the past. If it was improvement to an EXISTING tool, that's one thing. But this is a totally new model with NONE OF THE OLD COMPONENTS being used so it's more appropriate to compare the cars to Walthers' 20th Century Limited, Broadway Limited and El Capitan cars. I think you guys keep overlooking that consideration.

The above is the most practical explanation/reasoning as to why these cars would cost as much as they do. If that's "impractical" I question the person(s) making that assessment. But for all intents and purposes, its more the fact that you and others find these prices "undesirable" and yes, even I wish they cost less but I try to at least be reasonable and make sure that the pricing is consistent with everything else.

The bottom line is we "asked for it". I know I was very vocal about it and I reasonably knew what to expect. Why would Amtrak stuff get any different treatment than the rest of the model railroad products from Walthers? After asking for it for so long and Walthers delivering, I'm personally not going to balk. That's one of the many reasons that make it challenging for "niche" molders like ourselves to see more mass-produced Amtrak models. We'll gripe about not having the model but when its made available, we won't want to pay for it. I fear that this pattern discourages manufacturers from satisfying the Amtrak modeling market in the future. There are still many yet-to-be announced/released, mass-produced Amtrak products out there. This kind of sentiment will make it that much more difficult for us to ever see them come to light. Our buying and purchasing habbits DO have an impact on future product development. Don't think Walthers hasn't paid attention to how successfully the Amcal and Surfliner Superliners sold (I even purchased one of each despite not having taken them out of the box yet just to contribute to the cause and send a message to Walthers that at least "THIS POSTER is serious")