Finally New Walthers HO Amfleets are on the way!!

ajp31 wrote:Kyle et al,

For what it's worth, I believe the original GK E60 molds that Walthers owned are long gone. 12 years ago a hobby shop owner told me that the molds had cracked and been discarded, which is why the models disappeared from the Walthers product line in the mid-1980s. All of which is to say, the fact that Walthers offered this model in the past is of pretty much no predictive value as to whether they would offer it again. Don't get me wrong--I'd certainly buy a few--but unlike the Amfleet cars, where there is a sizable demand and a prototype with hundreds and hundreds of examples running all over the country, I don't see how tooling up a new niche model like the E60 would make any sense for Walthers. (And I still maintain that the Metroliners are being done because they share so much with the much-more-in demand Amfleets.)

I have to respectfully disagree. I do remember hearing that (possible) rumor about the cracked E60 tool Walthers had. I think the "old school" E60 shares popularity with the Metroliners. Additionally, looking at the pattern of what's coming out, the E60 would fall in line. Walthers seems to be pumping out old school, early Amtrak NEC stuff. All that's missing (excluding the AEM7 test beds) is the E60. I'm beginning to think Walthers likes throwing out surprises. I think the biggest unexpected yet pleasant surprise was the Metroliner announcements. Lets face it, people may have craved it but NOBODY expected it.

I'm not saying its a sure thing but at this point it would be a good guess that Walthers has an E60 up its sleeve. New tool for Metroliners (something they've never done before) and New tool for Amfleets (re-done after inheriting the GK tool). Is it that unreasonable to suspect a new E60CP from (as Walthes put it) "From roof to rails"?

Given today's standards, there are alot of manufacturers re-doing older models with super-detail, etc. The E60 hasn't had that treatment yet. Three encarnations of the E60 have been done, all of which had their shortcomings (although I'm completely happy with my GK E60).

I understand the "niche" argument but Walthers always sold out of the "niche" stuff. That "niche" area (northeast) is also the most densely populated, a factor that cannot be ignored in favor of looking ONLY at geography.

My preference is to see phase IVb Amfleet I's, with the re-tooling before an E60 from Walthers. That way I'd be in a better position to purchase one . For now, re-tooled Amfleet I's in phase IVb are the priority in my model railroad budget.

I certainly would welcome an E60CP and I do hope Walthers is planning one. I was impressed by the prototype E60 on trips I took to New York on Amtrak. For me, it was so neat to see a single E60 haul 15 car long Heritage cars at speed! Although restricted to 90mph, on one particular trip where the Silver Meteor was running late, the conductor shared with me that we were pushing over that speed. Apparently at that time during the early 80s, Amtrak didn't frown on engineers trying to make up time.

One of my favorite nuances of the E60 was the unique Nathan P-01235 horn. Basically a modified P5, specifically produced for the E60s. Imho, a cool, mellow sounding horn. As for the locomotives themselves, they basically sounded like heavy duty refrigerators. If Walthers decides to produce a sound version, hopefully the two E60s that have been or are being preserved are in running condition and, perhaps, one of them could be tapped to provide the sound sampling.

At first I was pretty frustrated with the price, but after thinking about it for a few weeks I am starting to get excited about these new Amfleets.
Some good points have been made:

mlrr wrote:Again, let there be no mistake. IT'S NOT JUST ADDED DETAIL!!!! It's a COMPLETELY NEW model.

I am sure these models will be AMAZING, and they are much needed in passenger train modeling. Their shape will actually match real Amfleets. Also, I expect the level of detail to make extremely high.

peanut1 wrote:Just because these cars have a big price tag doesn't mean you'll pay this amount.

That's a good point. I'm sure at some point there will be a sale and modeltrainstuff.com always has great pricing.

Backshophoss wrote:Hopefully this time around,Walters will make models of the "Corridor Clipper" and the "Business Amfleet Car" kitbash
done at Beech Grove.

I wish! The 9800, 10001 and 10002 would be great models, but I think those will be left up to kitbashing. The 10003 would be the easiest for Bachmann to do.

Amtrak207 wrote:I believe these cars are going to pave the way for new Amtrak models (Horizon, Viewliner, etc.) <--- personal opinion.

But as for other phases, I am willing to bet vital parts of my anatomy that Ph IVb will debut on these models. (Look how quick the AMD-103's sell out!)

But as I have said before, PLEASE keep the requests going to Walthers and let them hear your desires for other Phases, it only adds fuel to the fire.

Please thank them for their "Amfleet project", we have waited a LONG time for this, and many (including myself) wondered if it would ever be undertaken. I cannot thank Walthers enough for this.

I sent my email yesterday thanking Walthers. It is good to see that they listen to their modelers. I know that the modern Amtrak passenger market isn't the most popular, but it was sure nice of Walthers to bring these to the market. I also mentioned about the Phase IVb, but I am pretty confident that these are coming later.

M1 9147 wrote:Now if only Athearn made an AMD 103 model in the P40, P42, and P32AC-DM models! Their first release also included the Metro North, but of coarse it was a P40 model (original look with rear hostler window, and door)!

Since we are all saying out wishlist....
-Ex-Metroliner Cab Car IVb (assuming that Walthers does the Amfleets in IVb)
-Rerun of the AEM-7/ALP-44
-P40 in NJT paint
-SEPTA, NJT and other horizon commuter cars

mlrr wrote:E60 could be a player considering the Metroliner announcement (which was a surprise and unanticipated) but highly doubt AEM7s. Atlas did a great job with them. If Walthers acquired the tooling that would be "big news" but who knows. Atlas may have future plans for the AEM7 at some point and thus may hold onto it.

I agree that Atlas did a great job with the AEM-7, I love mine. But, I also think they should do another run. If you look on eBay the demand is there, especially phase V. I think they should release an updated phase V version with ditch lights and the Amtrak logo on the front and sides. I don't know why Bachmann hasn't woken up and removed the Acela logo from their HHP-8s. Anyway, both would look great hauling Amfleets. I think Athearn/Walthers should also release a phase V rebuilt P40. All they would have to do is put a 8XX number on the side.

Amtrak207 wrote:With Metroliner and Amfleet equipment on the way, it seems to be an "Amtrak year!"

I hope so! And for us Phase V/IVb guys it seems that more and more equipment is becoming readily available.

A new E60 might be nice....

That said, I'm sorry, I recognize there is new tooling in this Amfleet, but the prices are getting insane. Every 6 months, the passenger car price jumps up $10-$20, and none of you see a problem with this?

I happened to find a Walthers Catalog from 2 years ago, and the same passenger cars selling now for $60-$70 were sellinng then for $40-$50, and they are EXACTLY THE SAME MODEL IN THE SAME BOX. These don't even compare the Rapido cars going at nearly the same prices.

I won't knock this $70 Amfleet until I see it, but if is only just barely improvement, i'm going to get mad. Their list of improvements sound nice, but I'm not sure i'm totally impressed yet.

My feelings are similar to the new Metroliner. It depresses me greatly, since these Phase I amtrak cars are all exactly what I need right now for my own modeling efforts, but now everything is "Limited availability" and twice as expensive to boot. There is no more "take it slow and buy what you need one at a time".

acelaphillies wrote: I don't know why Bachmann hasn't woken up and removed the Acela logo from their HHP-8s.

Bachmann has not and never will care about the accuracy of its paint schemes. It consistently just slaps on railroad logos, roadnumbers, and other things without thought. The paint jobs on many of their models are flawed, to the point where I wonder if they ever looked at a photo of the model they were making.

I'm not talking small things either. Compare photos of the Conrail E33 with the prototype. You'll never find 4603 in blue, its entire operational existence is pretty much in Penn Central black (though I suspect it did get blue right before being stored and scrapped), and #4608 DEFINITELY does not match the prototypes.

I seem to remember some complaints about Bachmann's Amfleets having incorrect paint.

Green elite cab,I own bachmann amfleets and the paint looks accurate to me.

Walters had a factory "hiccup" in china and has changed to a "new" factory,All passenger car models are effected by this change.

peanut1 wrote:Green elite cab,I own bachmann amfleets and the paint looks accurate to me.

which amfleet do you own?

I'll play the game though. Check out Bachmann's Amfleet I in the Phase II scheme-

http://www.walthers.com/prodimage/79879 ... 471308.gif

Prototype Phase II

http://www.pjv101.net/film_bw/bw08/1416_170.jpg

Very different indeed! The Phase II scheme is simply the Phase I scheme without the "pointless arrow" logo, and yet it looks like Bachmann used creative licence on its model!

Lets try Phase III, a cafe car-

http://www.walthers.com/prodimage/79879 ... 471479.gif

the prototype

http://hebners.net/amtrak/amtAMFLT/Cafe43004.jpg

How about that over-sized bachmann lettering?

same story on the Phase IV

http://www.walthers.com/prodimage/79879 ... 471436.gif

prototype

http://hebners.net/amtrak/amtAMFLT/amt43040a.jpg

In the end thoughm it doesn't matter. These cars aren't accurate, byt they pass most people's attention. However, some bachmanns are worse offenders.

peanut1 wrote:Green elite cab,I own bachmann amfleets and the paint looks accurate to me.

As long as YOU are satisfied with the paint job quality of the Bachmann amfleet then that's all that matters. All I can say is compare a Walthers model, bachmann model and the prototype and tell me your thoughts after that. I'm not a rivet counter but the paint jobs to me are just GLARINGLY off. Proportionately, Bachmann the pin stripes on phase IV and IVb are WAY off in that the prototypes red and white pintsripes are equal in width. On the Bachmann model the red is too thin and the white to wide. I don't know how they screwed that up. What's more is that the blue for phase IV and IVB on the bachmann model is the same. Not true to prototype. Oddly enough the blue they used on their botched Acela Regional "Coachclass" car with the dark blue band and light blue splotches was more consistent with the proper blue. They even botched the phase designation unless that was intentional.




(I custom painted this myself but the pin stripes are the original factory paint, I masked them and created my own mixture to more accurately represent the Amtrak blue associated with phase IVb, painting OVER the factory phase IV blue)



On phases I and II the white stripe is too wide. on phase II, it could ALMOST be mistaken for phase III.

GreenElite Cab,

Please read EVERYTHING below which was excerpted from the "Features Page" page (I took the liberty of highlighting the significant improvements over the original model:

Like the prototypes, these models are totally new from the rooftops to the rails and come fully assembled, ready for service with:

New Body
* Correct Profile
* Fine Detailed Corrugations
New Trucks
* Factory-Lubricated Inside Bearings
* Brake Shoe & Other Details
Highly Detailed Underbody Equipment
Centersill & Cross Bracing on Underframe
Real-Metal Finish Simulates Stainless Steel
Factory-Installed Grab Irons
Paint Color Matched to Amtrak Standards
Window Gasket Details
Prototypical "Smoked Glass" Windows
Car Number Decals
LED Lighting Kit Available Separately
Correct 36" Turned Metal Wheelsets
Proto MAX™ Metal Knuckle Couplers

I can appreciate the "sticker shock" as much as the next person but how can any Amtrak modeler honestly say this wasn't expected. Every NEW passenger car that Walthers has come out with has been priced/treated like this. Why should we expect anything different, let alone the fact that they've been given the metal plating treatment. Also note that these are NEW TOOLS. New tooling costs money. Alot of money. We asked for these and we have to step up to the plate. If Walthers was asking for $100/car, then I'd raise my eyebrow. Why? Because it's not on par with the other passenger cars they've released. And don't fool yourself. Look at the price of the El Caps.

They're near $80. It would be foolish to call out the Metroliners as they're powered so you're actually paying for a locomotive, not just a passenger car. So when you look at the grand scheme of things, the new Amfleets are just about where they should be. They cost as much or slightly less than the new superliners.

The ONLY area in which I question Walthers' pricing on "new releases" is on cars that are completely painted and don't showcase their stainless steel finish. I can't see the justification in the pricing on those as there's no way for me to verify whether or not the metal plating is underneath the paint. Even if it is, I can't see why Walthers would go through the added expense. The only two reasons I can think of are 1) It's cheaper to plate everything rather than treat it differently 2) There's revenue sharing and the extra revenue generated per unit for the supposedly non-plated car that are priced as such go towards the funding of new products.

Both of those explanations I could accept as the prospect of new products always keeps the dream alive for the possibility of other new Amtrak equipment.

(I'm not begging but...)You'll have to forgive me if I sound insensitive when discussing these subjects. Even when things were "cheaper" I still had to take it in stride and buy things one step at a time. I had to plan it out and not only that but always have to get grief from my parents who thought that I was "out of control" with this stuff even though I had my own "checks and balances". I do the same even now (minus the grief from my parents) despite having more resources to purchase model trains.

Instead of complaining, use the lag time between the announcement and release to save up. Believe it or not (and I've said this on just about every post related to re-tooled amfleets) ever since Walthers retired the old run of Amfleets, I began saving up. One could even consider it a "trust fund". What I need to start doing is putting together a "trust fund" for the following possibilities:

Amtrak California Cars
Surfliner Cars
Nippon Shayro Gallery Cars (METRA and VRE)

green_elite_cab wrote:

peanut1 wrote:Green elite cab,I own bachmann amfleets and the paint looks accurate to me.

which amfleet do you own?

I'll play the game though. Check out Bachmann's Amfleet I in the Phase II scheme-

http://www.walthers.com/prodimage/79879 ... 471308.gif

Prototype Phase II

http://www.pjv101.net/film_bw/bw08/1416_170.jpg

Very different indeed! The Phase II scheme is simply the Phase I scheme without the "pointless arrow" logo, and yet it looks like Bachmann used creative licence on its model!

Lets try Phase III, a cafe car-

http://www.walthers.com/prodimage/79879 ... 471479.gif

the prototype

http://hebners.net/amtrak/amtAMFLT/Cafe43004.jpg

How about that over-sized bachmann lettering?

same story on the Phase IV

http://www.walthers.com/prodimage/79879 ... 471436.gif

prototype

http://hebners.net/amtrak/amtAMFLT/amt43040a.jpg

In the end though it doesn't matter. These cars aren't accurate, but they pass most people's attention. However, some bachmanns are worse offenders.

I own Phave V, capstone and Phase IV. I will have Phase I and III once I pre-order the new walthers Proto 2000 amfleet cars.

Lets be serious about the pricing for these passenger cars.I think it is just plain to expensive.Some of you agree and some of you disagree.I just had to say that.We the buyers have to let these companys know that you can only charge so much for an item before you scare us so bad that we wont be able to buy again.Ask for those Amfleet sets you just might have to skip a car payment to afford them. Thats my 2 cents worth.

They are great looking cars. But, as the last poster stated, they are just too expensive. I know, you
get what you pay for, but, in my opinion, to pay these prices - for these items or others - is only telling
the manufacturers that we modellers will pay the price. I am sorry, I won't. Thanks.

I just pre-ordered a metroliner cab. I will not be getting the Phase III amfleet car and will be waiting for the Phave V release.

The Walthers cars are retooled, brand new from top to bottom and factoring Amtrak's licensing fee, plating, interior lighting, shipping, advertising, the cost is on par with other manufacturers' passenger car releases. Its a double edged sword because we want passenger cars on par with brass but not the hefty price tag. I'll give Walthers credit because we've been asking for retooled Amfleets for years but at the same time can't blast Walthers for their "manufacturer's suggested retail price" which, if you shop around will be 10-15% cheaper.

Say what you want about Bachmann, they were the first to upgrade their Amfleets with LED lighting and red end of car lights and made them affordable for entry level modellers. I'll give them a pass on the paint job, which IMO is decent and still serves a need if your not a rivet counter and can't afford the higher prices.

Walthers manufactured those same crappy Amfleets with horrible wheelsets, no interiors or lighting for decades and far as I remember the only upgrade was adding diaphagms to the end of the cars. And the prices increased! How much money did we all put into them to "upgrade" them into something that wouldn't jump off the rails or derail on switches?

Look at the vintage Budd & Pullman passenger cars which are not the greatest of models. AHM, IHC and Rivarossi were for a long time the only game in town and were affordable if you modelled US railroads. Cost was $15-20, and they came with no interiors or lights, crappy X2F couplers, plastic wheelsets, and no weights. We were happy to have something that represented the railroad we rode as kids.

Heck, until recently I had my PRR passenger cars from AHM which I upgraded over the years with interiors and lighting kits but for a long time they were empty shells.

Add-in seats &interiors ($5-7), light kits ($5-7), change out the plastic wheelsets to metal ($3-4), add weight plates ($4?) replace the factory truck mounted couplers and drill Kadee gear boxes ($2-3) and add Kadee couplers ($2-3).

Factor in your cost for time & labor and what price do you come up with? The same cost as the passenger cars sold today!

...and the same folks wonder why we don't have Amtrak California Cars, Surfliners and Talgo Train sets in the "Amtrak Cascades" livery.

Walters has 2 "California" Superliner variants,both are coachs,1 in full Amtrak Ca.,1 in "Surfliner",
part of the Superliner I line.
(pg 131 current[2012]HO "Book")
Maybe walters will do the "Cabagge" car in the future.