Federal, Night Owl, Twilight Shoreliner (Trains 65, 66, 67)

For some years, railroads, and trains, tickets through New York and/or Washington (and maybe other stations where many trains terminated) on through trains were priced higher than the sum of the local fares, possibly so those through passengers could make a lower density coach pay its way.

First, concur with Mr. Boylan that an interline fare, say, Boston to Philadelphia marked Via Hell Gate Bridge was greater than the two Local fares, which one first rode to GCT, thence transferred to Penn.

An "old New Haven hand" once referred that to me as "bridge toll".

I think that was a special situation arising from the existence of the Hell Gate Bridge on the New York Connecting Railroad. The through fares from points east of NY to those west of there had an extra dollar, as I recall, to provide for that. However, the New Haven didn't charge the toll on New York tickets when used on trains via NYP; I assume that for simplicity they just "ate" the payment to NYCon. When I worked for the PRR in Boston in the late 50s our passenger clerk made a personal trip on the Federal from Washington to Boston using her PRR annual pass from Washington to NY and an employee half-rate order from NY to Boston. Sometime after leaving NY (after midnight) she heard a persistent buzzing at her roomette door: it was the New Haven conductor demanding a dollar for the bridge toll (apparently the half-rate order didn't reduce it to 50 cents). Afaik nothing like that happened on her southbound day trip, so enforcement may not have been consistent.

I'm sure that under the Fourth Section of the Interstate Commerce Act, if the total fare from A to C via B exceeded the sum of the fares from A to B plus B to C the combination over B would defeat the through fare and would automatically apply. Thus, if a published fare from Baltimore to Richmond exceeded the sum of the two local fares over Washington, someone would have challenged it and gotten it corrected.

ExCon90 wrote: ↑Fri May 19, 2023 8:50 pm I think that was a special situation arising from the existence of the Hell Gate Bridge on the New York Connecting Railroad. The through fares from points east of NY to those west of there had an extra dollar, as I recall, to provide for that. However, the New Haven didn't charge the toll on New York tickets when used on trains via NYP; I assume that for simplicity they just "ate" the payment to the NYCon.

Concur Mr. ExCon; the New Haven's Local fare was same originating at GCT or Penn. Always a treat for a young teen aged railfan; namely the Bridge followed by passing Van Nest Shops (NH Electrics).

I must wonder if anywhere else, there was a situation where an Interline fare exceeded the sum of two Locals?

Finally Mr. ExCon, could you share what "off line" (Non-Agreement?) position in Boston you held while King Pennsy's subject?

Local vs interline fares: my wife and I have scheduled a trip for July and August: Phila.-NY-Rensselaer-Pittsfield; Pittsfield-Syracuse; Syracuse-Schenectady-Burlington; and Burlington-NY-Phila. I found that some of the fares were much cheaper if reserved separately, Burlington-NY-Phila. particularly.

Yes; ever since Staggers (and in passenger service, ever since Amtrak?) Amtrak and the freight railroads have been able to establish passenger fares and freight rates according to market demand just like any normal business. Today, passenger fares depend, among other things, on how far in advance you buy the ticket -- unheard of under the ICC. Way back when Canadian National introduced its red-white-and-blue fares (different fares based on day of travel) it would have been like moving heaven and earth to get something like that through the ICC.

Mr. Norman, my first job on the PRR, and in the industry. was as a carload trace clerk in the office of the New England Sales Manager in Boston, which, with a staff of 17, plus three subordinate District Sales Offices in other cities, was responsible for freight and passenger sales (this was 1956) throughout New England.

The first question in the interview was, "are you willing to relocate?" (If the answer was no, it was also the last question in the interview.) I subsequently held a succession of management positions in Sales and Marketing in New York, Philadelphia, Buffalo, Pittsburgh, Baltimore, New York, Chicago, New York, and Philadelphia. They meant it. The idea was that that was how you learned the railroad, and the overall policy in both Sales and Operations was that you didn't get promoted in place; a promotion meant a move.

Wow Mr. ExCon '56-'90, thirty four years.

Twenty three more than I lasted (before moving on to my third career - a CPA in private practice; first was military service), and being my own boss.

But we're getting off topic around here; read it before it's killed.

Are we still talking about the Night Owl?

Lets put aside that the Night Owl is trains 65/66/67. The routing doesn't work since 65/67 ends up at a different station from 66, and there's no indication they'll pair things back up again. Plus, that whole setup will go Airo, which will not have sleeper cars.

Which gets into what we'd like from here on out. Lets slot a consist at 60/61 for between WAS and BOS. Make it a Viewliner consist, a few coaches, a dinette, and a sleeper.

Demand... well, there wasn't much advertising for it, TBH. And frankly put, how many actually would go end to end?

Didn't we ask for those stats?

60-61, Mr. Wolf?

Those were the numbers assigned for the still-lamented Montrealer - a train that did good business and was known as a "party train" - or at least anytime I had occasion to ride it.

60-61 were also the numbers assigned by the PRR to The Pittsburgher - an all-Pullman NY-Pgh that lasted into the 60's. I rode it Dec '60, and the all-Pullman consist was at least twelve cars- and likely longer "once upon a time".

STrRedWolf wrote: ↑Sun May 21, 2023 9:22 am Which gets into what we'd like from here on out. Lets slot a consist at 60/61 for between WAS and BOS. Make it a Viewliner consist, a few coaches, a dinette, and a sleeper.

If you are going to slot something from outside the NEC onto the NEC, then I would think a Silver makes more sense. They are the most popular trains and through service would be greatly appreciated. Maybe a new Palmetto running from Boston all the way to Miami on the FEC? At least to Orlando or Tampa? That train's schedule could work the best and this would also bring back through baggage service sorely missed.

P.S. I would also like to take this opportunity to reiterate that I hate the lack of traditional schedules on the Amtrak website. This can't be that difficult a project for them to do.

I'm mainly focusing on the NEC, which for WAS to BOS is at least 8 hours (65/66/67 makes it in 10). And remember, this is supposedly an overnight train in that section... and this is in Amtrak owned territory.

Now making a new Silver Constellation that's BOS to MIA? Or even stretching the Silver Star to Boston? It gets a little tricky because now that's getting into 2-day trip territory and I would bet the Viewliners would need to restock mid-way. You'd have to shift the train over at least 12 hours, maybe 14, to get some good timing.... and that's w/o talking to CSX about it.

I realize and respect that Mr. Trainguy holds differently in that he has noted here of a desire to have "The Vacationer" restored (a BOS-NH-NYP-PRR-WAS-RF&P-RIC-ACL-JAX-FEC-MIA train that did not handle passengers at NY Penn), but just think of the savings Amtrak would realize if they simply told the political forces in Boston that we are truncating 448-9 at ALB and eliminating the through Boston Chicago Sleeper and Coach lines.

No more having to maintain parts inventory for Sleepers at BOS or Mechanical forces qualified to work on them; no need to have linen supplies.

For that matter, no need for Sleeper passengers assigned to the existing Boston sleeper line to have to "listen to the music through the night", as that line is placed at ALB on the head immediately behind the engines.

As I've noted in the past around here, passengers got along without the through BOS-CHI lines after the "Gunnmen" realized the folly of these cars and until the Politicos up there leaned on the "call me Alex" (or was it Boardman?) regime to restore them.

I respect that severe passenger inconvenience would result if the CHI-SAS-LAX (quick off topic quiz; where was station SAM?) Coach and Sleeper lines were eliminated, as well as if same were done with CHI-PDX lines, but people are quite used to changing flights on a journey - even if they use an airline that "hubs" at their airport.

Finally, even if I never observed The Vacationeer, which I think lasted into the 50's, my first observation that I remember to this day was at Westerly during '46 when I wanted to observe the steam locomotive and my Grandmother yelling at me "don't go near that dirty thing". As those follow my material here likely have surmised, I came from an "uh, not exactly" railfan family.

Night. Owl. Please. It already runs to Boston (annulments at NYP notwithstanding) and on to Virginia. Whether or not an LD can be extended is a different topic in a thread that's on here somewhere. It's a worthy discussion, but belongs in the appropriate topic i.e. LSL, Silver, Palmetto, and all that.