Binghamton NY - New York City NYC Passenger Rail Discussion

I'll leave the status of the line south of Scranton to the more knowledgeable, but the Delaware and Hudson diverted its freight service from the former route over Ararat Mountain to the much better-engineered Lackawanna Cutoff in the mid-1980's. Traffic here got another boost when NS rerouted its two (in each direction) daily Harrisburg-Buffalo moves via the former PRR Wilkes-Barre Branch a few years ago.

In New York state forum there is already a parralel tread.
Lets not discus this at two places

Pleased to learn Mr. 2nd Trick.

We both know (you better than I) that the Lackawanna was no "hill and dale mud ballast" ROW such as I must regretfully acknowledge all too much of my MILW was (Rock Island was even more).

How did they do studies on a line that was sold by conrail in the 80s? As far as I know, its only been studied since the late 90s?

northjerseybuff wrote:How does amtrak go about these studies? from the study process to first train, how many years did it take the downeaster to get going?

Roughly a decade from the initial proposal to the first train, but a good part of the delay was due to protracted negotiations with the Guilford organization over a dispute about maximum speeds on the B&M trackage north of the Massachusetts/New Hampshire state line. Note also that the prime mover in the successful Downeaster startup was the Northern New England Rail Passenger Authority; Amtrak was and is basically just a contract operator for the service.

Nope, that special Amtrak train that left from Hoboken and traveled to Scranton in Nov. of 1979 was part of a study conducted on whether or not it would be feasible to run commuter trains to Scranton. Nobody bought it!!

Just because Conrail owned it didn't mean that passenger service couldn't be studied.

SecaucusJunction wrote:There are so many problems with this that its not even funny... You're right, this would require a huge investment by Amtrak for a service that may very well be a flop. They would either have to create a second terminal in Hoboken, get some sort of so far uninvented dual mode that can make it through the tunnels, or have an engine change around Dover. The other funny thing is, looking at NJT's schedule, even with the most express trains it takes over 1 1/2 hours to get from Hopatcong to Hoboken... couple that with PATH transfer times and the time to get to 33rd street and you are close to 2 hours. That gives this new service just about 1 hour and 15 minutes to get from Hopatcong to Binghamton to be competitive with buses. I think you'd need a Japanese bullet train for that run.

This is a huge problem with the Lackawanna Cutoff project in itself. If NJT cannot run trains in a time competitive fashion even as far as Scranton, I think residents there would rather drive to a closer destination to board a train to NYC or just drive there themselves. With the pace that the Lackawanna Cutoff is moving at, I'd say it is a minimum of 10-15 years away at best if it ever happens.

Note: The Cutoff EA lists the Dover-HOB time at 1:01, probably due to bidirectional signaling on summit-dover to allow faster expresses. Not a huge improvement, but something. Moreover, don't use PATH times. The EA lists the Dover-Broad Street time at about 47 minutes. Adding in the 21 minutes it takes to go from Broad Street to NYP plus a 10 minute transfer, gives you 1 h, 18 minutes. Now unless it takes 42 minutes go the 5.4 miles from Lake Hopatcong to Dover (without having to accelerate from a standstill), I think 2 hours is a little off.

Right now the Scranton-Hoboken time is listed at 3 hours, 20 minutes in the EA. This is without cab signaling (at least west of Hopatcong) and with local stops at places such as Andover and Blairstown. Minor curve relocations can be achieved in rural areas at a relatively low cost (depending on the terrain). It might be worth it to add cab signaling, depending on curve geometry and grade, which would also incrementally reduce the time. For example, the 28 miles of the Cutoff theoretically would take 21 minutes if the 79 mph max speed could be maintained over the entire segment. It would take 15 minutes, 17 seconds at the 110 mph max speed of a P42DC. Now these numbers would never be achieved in real life because of acceleration and 5 minutes, 43 seconds seems small, but incremental improvements like these over the entire line would add up. The EA times were probably calculated using commuter rail cars. If tilting cars were used, the speed over some of the curves could be reduced further adding incremental improvements in time savings.

Do trains run through Hackettstown to the Delaware Water Gap? It has been a long time since I"ve been there.

Gilbert B Norman wrote:How busy is the Erie nowadays?

Is the Lackawanna through PA still intact?

1. Not very. The Southern Tier west of CP Sparrow is, last I heard, at a 30-mph MAS.
2. The Lackawanna east of Scranton, as far as Analomink, is operated by Genessee Valley Transportation (Delaware-Lackawanna, well-known Alco operators) under contract to the owners, who are known as the Northeast PA Regional Rail Authority. East of Analomink, Norfolk Southern is the owner. All rail east of Scranton has a 40-mph MAS and requires written orders for operation, including Steamtown excursions. West of Scranton, the line is owned and operated currently by Canadian Pacific; their unique SD40-2Fs make occasional appearances east of their own territory.

coco60 wrote:Do trains run through Hackettstown to the Delaware Water Gap? It has been a long time since I've been there

Not likely. The DL&W "Old Main" has been decimated west of Washington NJ. It'd be a very tricky move to go via Phillipsburg to reach the Bangor Branch, though not impossible. Hackettstown is host to NJ Transit commuter trains during the week.

Oh man, are you living in a fantasy world. High speed track... tilting cars? They cant even get the money together to lay a single track down. Its been talked about for probably 20 years now and nothing has come of it. If this project ever did get off the ground, money would be squeezed and that 3 hr 20 min mark would never be achieved... especially in NJT's schedules. I was in Scranton yesterday and made it back to Bergen County in just over 90 minutes. Even with traffic, I'd say the driving time to Hoboken would probably be about a hour quicker than the advertised times. Or if driving to NYC doesnt float your boat, you can take Rt 80 to any number of NJT stations or even better, Rt 84/17 to Suffern and probably save an hour off your trip.

Hey Secaucus Junction..try traveling from scranton to nyc or northern new jersey in the AM rush hour..with snowy weather conditions like today. Much different then on a saturday afternoon with no adverse conditions.

Now, back to the study. is binghamton the end/start point, or will the entire southern tier region west to elmira and buffalo be studied? I hear CSX is saturated on the water level route, making it harder for amtrak to add more trains up there. the tier would add another option for travelers from buffalo.

SecaucusJunction wrote:Oh man, are you living in a fantasy world. High speed track... tilting cars? They cant even get the money together to lay a single track down. Its been talked about for probably 20 years now and nothing has come of it. If this project ever did get off the ground, money would be squeezed and that 3 hr 20 min mark would never be achieved... especially in NJT's schedules. I was in Scranton yesterday and made it back to Bergen County in just over 90 minutes. Even with traffic, I'd say the driving time to Hoboken would probably be about a hour quicker than the advertised times. Or if driving to NYC doesnt float your boat, you can take Rt 80 to any number of NJT stations or even better, Rt 84/17 to Suffern and probably save an hour off your trip.

Tilting cars are not that far out in the US. Not saying it will or not but if you have three senior senators having a stake in the project (Schumer, Spector, and Lautenburg because he loves all things that run on steel wheels), it gives it a greater chance of being designated a high speed rail corridor.

Of all of the corridors in the US that need high speed rail, I think there would be a large uproar if the place to get the new technology was the Lackwanna Cutoff. There are plenty of other cities that need to be connected rather than Scranton and Hoboken.

Now even if a miracle happened and NJT achieved a 3 hour, 20 minute run from Scranton to Hoboken... with connection times and PATH running time adding about 30 mins plus the run from home to the train station, the best times from door to NYC would be around 4 hours. Are there many people that would take a 4 hour commute to and from the city every day? People would spend much longer on a train than they would in there office... and commuting is the only way to have this service pay off. I say, spend the money elsewhere.

Why PATH? I already explained that MidtownDirect would be faster (3 h, 37 minutes with the current 21 min Broad Street - Penn with a 10 minute transfer, a time which would probably be reduced when ARC eliminates holdups at SWIFT). Also why would 3 hours, 20 minutes be a "miracle"? If they are going to rebuild the cutoff, I doubt they would try and save money by making it less than 79 mph. For the amount of money you would save by doing less, it would not be worth it. Most of the money would be dedicated to rebuilding the Cutoff and would be a base requirement for service. The upgrades for the rest of the line, AFAICT, would be rather minimal as currently proposed. Unless you can show me where they would save money by doing less, I think you're just talking out of your rear.

Sure there are other cities that need to be connected more, but in the most rail-friendly part of the country, the Northeast, the Scranton area (along with the Lehigh Valley in Pennsylvania) stands out as one of the few metro areas within NYC sphere without rail service. Considering that higher speed rail is both viable due to the nature of the Cutoff and desirable considering the distance and rural/exurban nature of the intermediate area, I think it makes it a good candidate. This is especially true if Binghamton is added as well (Upstate NY has been in a serious decline for a long time and anything to help the economy plays well in NYS politics).

Also, the market is Scranton/Poconos-NYC. The train may go to Hoboken, but that's not the market served. That also brings up another point. While Scranton is the endpoint (and an intercity service destination), it is not where most commuters will be coming from. Scranton would only have 30 parking spaces. By contrast, Pocono Mountain station would have 1,000. Delaware Water Gap station would have 900. The travel times for those two stations to Hoboken are 2:38 and 1:58, respectively (2:55 and 2:15 using my calculations for NYP).

Well to go to NYP one would need Dual mode locomotives, already on back burner.
Unless your endless pit of information sees the Cut off electrified ???