Amtrak on the Florida East Coast FEC Jacksonville - Miami

It must have made too much sense to spend a few million on the FEC before spending a billion on the HSR plan. You still need billions more for the Orlando-Miami project. IMHO it would be better to get the FEC up & running even if it's not HSR.

Update: http://jacksonville.com/news/metro/2011 ... -prospects

Amtrak has passenger service from Jacksonville to Miami via CSX tracks on its Silver Star and Silver Meteor trains. But the Silver Meteor goes through Orlando and takes nine hours, and the Silver Star takes almost 11 hours through Tampa.

The Florida Department of Transportation estimates that Florida East Coast tracks, which roughly parallel Interstate 95, could take an Amtrak train from Jacksonville to Miami in six hours, about the same as driving.

The project would cost about $250 million, with the state and federal government splitting the cost if the federal government agrees to the arrangement.

The money is necessary to upgrade tracks so the passenger rail wouldn't interfere with Florida East Coast freight operations. New stations would also be built in St. Augustine and Daytona Beach. Local officials believe this would entice more tourists to come to those towns on the train.

Jeff Smith wrote:Update: http://jacksonville.com/news/metro/2011 ... -prospects

Amtrak has passenger service from Jacksonville to Miami via CSX tracks on its Silver Star and Silver Meteor trains. But the Silver Meteor goes through Orlando and takes nine hours, and the Silver Star takes almost 11 hours through Tampa.

The Florida Department of Transportation estimates that Florida East Coast tracks, which roughly parallel Interstate 95, could take an Amtrak train from Jacksonville to Miami in six hours, about the same as driving.

The project would cost about $250 million, with the state and federal government splitting the cost if the federal government agrees to the arrangement.

The money is necessary to upgrade tracks so the passenger rail wouldn't interfere with Florida East Coast freight operations. New stations would also be built in St. Augustine and Daytona Beach. Local officials believe this would entice more tourists to come to those towns on the train.

Great news! Include a Hertz car rental at those stops and now you're talking!

Back in pre-Amtrak days, before Amtrak ran everything through Orlando and before CSX abandoned Wildwood to Auburndale, the "Meteor" used to take 6:45 MIA to JAX, which incidentally was almost the same as the fastest FEC running time.

In fact, the fastest NYP to MIA schedule ever operated was 23:45 on the "Florida Special", and it used the former Seaboard, not FEC.

That having been said, a six-hour timing on FEC would be the fastest schedule ever operated on that railroad, and faster than most Amtrak trains elsewhere. IT's 375 miles JAZ to MIA.

That six hour figure mentioned in the article has to have been a misunderstanding with FDOT. Even they're not that stupid. I can see maybe 7 1/2 hours. Right now, it's 8 1/2 hours from Hialeah/Miami to JAX.

JasW wrote:That six hour figure mentioned in the article has to have been a misunderstanding with FDOT. Even they're not that stupid. I can see maybe 7 1/2 hours. Right now, it's 8 1/2 hours from Hialeah/Miami to JAX.

The Florida application for the FEC corridor project for the FY2010 funding states a current run time Jacksonville to Miami of 394 minutes (6:34) and a projected run time of 368 minutes (6:08) after the upgrade work to be funded by the project is complete. The application says that after signals, grade crossings, and 29 mile of surface track work is complete, approximately 83% of the corridor will support 90 mph service. All that for $250 million is very low hanging fruit for automobile driving time competitive service. However, I suspect any FEC applications or projects by FDOT are dead so long as Scott is Governor. He threw back $2.3 billion of federal money for HSR and he may kill SunRail.

Probably a 6 hour running time is possible . average speed 62.5 mph . but then Amtrak will insert and hour to hour and 1/2 of padding , so best to plan on 7 hours .

My thinking must be colored by the fact that I am near that 17% of the corridor that will definitely not support anywhere near 90 mph service. There are a million and one FEC grade crossings over major urban auto arteries in South Florida. I'm not sure what would or could be done to improve them. Amtrak on CSX goes through a somewhat smaller but still significant fraction of grade crossings down here, and I don't think it ever tops 50 mph. Plus I would think there would have to be at least five stops in South Florida, e.g., WPB, Boca, Lauderdale, Hollywood, and Miami, which would slow things down even further. Still, if someone has crunched all these numbers, I bow down to that analysis. That thing is going to have to fly north of Jupiter.

JasW wrote:Amtrak on CSX goes through a somewhat smaller but still significant fraction of grade crossings down here, and I don't think it ever tops 50 mph.

I think they're considering either the FEC or Tri-Rail alignment in South Florida.

If Amtrak followed FEC south of WPB, I can think of one as-yet nonexistent possible FEC station that would be VERY appealing in South Florida: the southeast corner of Fort Lauderdale Airport, where the tracks briefly straighten out after curving around the airport's front after ducking under 595. Even a canvas-awning concrete slab like the first Tri-Rail stations would be profoundly popular there, because it would basically give Broward County its own "Mini-MIC" passenger rail terminal with abundant and secure (if slightly expensive) parking, and direct pedestrian access to the airport's rental car center and ground transportation amenities. If you look on Google Maps, the area I'm talking about is south of the garage, adjacent to a pair of surface parking lots with a 3-way traffic circle between them.

If anything, the biggest single problem with putting a station there is that it would become TOO popular, and render Amtrak's stations along SFRC (including their Hialeah station) almost irrelevant for anyone not traveling between South Florida and Tampa/Orlando. I'll go a step further, and argue that if they were to go as far as building new stations along FEC south of WPB, they might as well move ALL of their trains over to FEC south of WPB. I'm pretty sure there are even working connector tracks that wouldn't require backing maneuvers north of downtown WPB (ie, a train could go from northbound FEC to north/northwest-bound SFRC, and from south/southeast-bound SFRC to southbound FEC, without having to back up). I know the logistics of getting the trains from downtown Miami to/from Hialeah for maintenance/restocking would be ugly, but it would be the ultimate win-win compromise if Noel & I had to come to an agreement... I'd get to point at Fort Lauderdale's station with full ground transportation amenities, and he'd get to point at the station in Miami's urban core. We could argue about which one would end up being more popular or useful, but I think we could both agree that between the two stations, just about every passenger heading to South Florida would end up satisfied.

Note: to see what I'm talking about, go to http://tinyurl.com/fecfllstation and scroll around until you see the directions from point A to point B. That's the area I'm talking about.

I think that's a great idea, and I have no doubt that it would be regardless if Amtrak OR Tri-Rail end up using the FEC tracks. Not to get too deeply into the Tri-Rail discussion, which always seems to get threads locked, but if Tri-Rail were to stop there, it would provide a decent train-to-the-plane alternative. I say only "decent" because Tri-Rail, since it runs north-south, would not help out those who live in the western suburbs.

While it's a great idea for Amtrak to stop at FLL, I don't think Miami-Dade is going to be particularly keen on Amtrak suddenly pulling out of the MIC. After all, Amtrak terminating there was one of the reasons (but certainly not the primary one) for building it.

Still, if Amtrak does shift over to the FEC, a downtown Miami station around where Noel suggested would have excellent transit connection possibilities. If the station were built here on NW 1st Avenue between NW 5th and NW 6th Streets, the Overtown Metrorail stop would be directly across NW 6th Street and the now poorly named Arena State Plaza Metromover stop would be directly across NW 5th Street. Obviously, a two-block spur would have to be built where the FEC tracks curve east to the port south of NW 8th St. (and NW 6th Street would probably have to be closed there), but I believe the FEC still owns both parcels on which the spur to the terminal would be built since it is the ROW of the original tracks that went to the old station north of the courthouse. Perhaps the spur could even be elevated so there could be even easier walkway overpass connections to Metrorail and Metromover.

Also, and this is much farther out since Beach political hacks put the project in the deep freeze for another ten years or so, but Baylink is or was planned to have a stop right at the very corner of this possible terminal. That would be the ideal situation because most tourists coming to South Florida stay in South Beach, where one does not need a car. Indeed, most of the people coming by train are already inclined toward traveling this way, so it's a natural fit.

JasW wrote:While it's a great idea for Amtrak to stop at FLL, I don't think Miami-Dade is going to be particularly keen on Amtrak suddenly pulling out of the MIC. After all, Amtrak terminating there was one of the reasons (but certainly not the primary one) for building it.

I can't find the report I saw yesterday, but the FEC to Miami-Dade option would have trains heading over on the existing FEC main to Hialeah and then down to the MIC.

NE2 wrote:

JasW wrote:While it's a great idea for Amtrak to stop at FLL, I don't think Miami-Dade is going to be particularly keen on Amtrak suddenly pulling out of the MIC. After all, Amtrak terminating there was one of the reasons (but certainly not the primary one) for building it.

I can't find the report I saw yesterday, but the FEC to Miami-Dade option would have trains heading over on the existing FEC main to Hialeah and then down to the MIC.

I guess Amtrak is committed to MIC, then. However, the FEC has no junction with or connector track to Amtrak/Tri-Rail/CSX/SAL there, only a right-angle crossing here just south of the Tri-Rail Metrorail Transfer station. Kind of a tight squeeze to build a junction there.

It appears that the discussion at the topic has become directed towards the "what might have beens'. Yes the FEC operating through the core Downtowns along the West Palm Miami "Gold coast' would appear to be the "natural' passenger train route. No doubt, when FEC exited the passenger business during January 1963 (ignoring the judicially imposed local train "operating under strike conditions; ride at your own risk"), had the FEC and Seaboard "swapped' ROW's WPB-MIA, passenger rail interests would have been enhanced. Tri-Rail, and its massive infrastructure improvements, as well as Amtrak, would have operated along the FEC and likely terminated at a station far more convenient to Downtown Miami then the existing Hialeah and possibly airport (KMIA/MIC) facility.

But what's done is done; the SAL has become a predominately passenger road and so much of the area has been built up to such extent that population centers now also exist along the SAL (you should have seen Deerfield Beach when I first alighted there during 1956 - talk about 'The Styx"). To operate any passenger trains along a route other than the SAL would simply be counterproductive and obviate the passenger facilities that have been built. To my knowledge, the physical FEC-SAL interchange between Magnonia Park and West Palm remains "in place" (active?). Therefore the costs that would be incurred to reroute intercity trains, while a nice pipe dream to hold, would simply be a waste.

It would be nice to rewrite history; but then it becomes fiction.

The last I heard and it is pretty recent Amtrak has no desire to operate to MIA or MIC or whatever you want to call it. They want to operate on the Florida East Coast and serve downtown Miami, that is one reason the inspection train operated downtown last year.
As for the FEC and Tri-Rail, that really doesn't belong on here but I will say again, the FEC wants Amtrak and will work with them but they can not handle Tri-Rail with the present physical plant and they have a very impotant facility in Fort Lauderdale which they will not walk away from.
The FEC expects an expansion of their IM business out of both Miami/Hialeah and Fort Lauderdale.
Noel Weaver