• Amtrak on the Florida East Coast FEC Jacksonville - Miami

  • Discussion related to Amtrak also known as the National Railroad Passenger Corp.
Discussion related to Amtrak also known as the National Railroad Passenger Corp.

Moderators: GirlOnTheTrain, mtuandrew, Tadman

  by electricron
 
Noel Weaver wrote:The last I heard and it is pretty recent Amtrak has no desire to operate to MIA or MIC or whatever you want to call it. They want to operate on the Florida East Coast and serve downtown Miami, that is one reason the inspection train operated downtown last year.
Noel Weaver
If the FEC wants Amtrak on their corridor, I believe Amtrak will run on their corridor. At least one, if not two, daily Amtrak trains can switch corridors and use it. Although I believe only one will switch. Have the Silver Meteor terminate in Tampa via Orlando while the Silver Star terminates in Miami via Daytona and Coco Beach (or vice versa).
Floridians wishing to ride a train between Tampa or Orlando and Miami can switch trains in Jacksonville.

If per chance Amtrak ever decided to run a second train between Chicago and Texas, a similar split would be acceptable to me. Have the Texas Eagle follow its existing route, but have the second train diverged directly to Houston. I believe the diverging station could be Dallas (to restore Amtrak service between Dallas and Houston), but I wouldn't object if that station was Marshall for a more direct route.

It's difficult for me to believe there isn't a direct Amtrak train between Chicago and Houston today....
  by NE2
 
JasW wrote:
NE2 wrote:
JasW wrote:While it's a great idea for Amtrak to stop at FLL, I don't think Miami-Dade is going to be particularly keen on Amtrak suddenly pulling out of the MIC. After all, Amtrak terminating there was one of the reasons (but certainly not the primary one) for building it.
I can't find the report I saw yesterday, but the FEC to Miami-Dade option would have trains heading over on the existing FEC main to Hialeah and then down to the MIC.
I guess Amtrak is committed to MIC, then. However, the FEC has no junction with or connector track to Amtrak/Tri-Rail/CSX/SAL there, only a right-angle crossing here just south of the Tri-Rail Metrorail Transfer station. Kind of a tight squeeze to build a junction there.
Not hard if they buy the Angler warehouse on the corner.
  by george matthews
 
David Benton wrote:nobodies going to travel up to Jacksonville to get from Tampa to Maimi .
And what about Winterhaven (where my Mother-in-law has an apartment). Already they have reduced the trains to two.
  by Noel Weaver
 
What about Winter Haven? It is a smaller city in Central Florida with a population of around 30,000. The trains will serve many more folks running on the Florida East Coast than through Winter Haven and Sebring which is even smaller than Winter Haven.
Relax, it hasn't happened yet and whether it does in the forseeable future still remains to be seen.
Noel Weaver
  by miamicanes
 
Floridians wishing to ride a train between Tampa or Orlando and Miami can switch trains in Jacksonville.
You can't be serious. Nobody, ever, is going to travel to Tampa or Orlando via Jacksonville.

Amtrak can split trains in Jacksonville and get away with it, but if they literally tried to divert one of their two daily trains away from Orlando, and made travel between South Florida and Orlando possible ONLY via 2-hour detour through Tampa, they would kill their in-state market for travel between South Florida and Orlando *dead* unless they introduced two new corridor trains, each making a daily round trip between Miami and Orlando (from opposite ends) to make up for it.

With Dick in the Governor's mansion, Amtrak wouldn't *dare* to upset the status quo, or do anything that requires the governor to do anything besides look the other way. If it tiptoes quietly and doesn't upset anyone, it might be able to slip this under the radar as a previously-funded project. If Amtrak were to announce the elimination of their one daily train that runs between Orlando and Miami without a 2-hour detour to Tampa, the angry response would give him all the excuse he needed to kill FEC Amtrak, too. And frankly, given that it's the one train I actually ride two or three times a year and its abolition would eliminate that as a possibility, I wouldn't shed many tears. Service along FEC is a good thing, but not if it ends up destroying one of Florida's few existing viable passenger routes in the process.

Now... if Amtrak established service along FEC that included FLL and downtown Miami, AND they added a pair of new corridor trains that departed from Orlando and downtown Miami around noon, arrived around 5:30pm, and headed back in the other direction around 6 or 6:15pm, that would be just about ideal (assuming HSR is nowhere on the horizon). With a second pair of corridor trains running 8:30-2pm and 2:30pm-8pm along the same route (FEC to WPB, CSX to Orlando), they'd have a completely respectable schedule for service between Orlando and South Florida given the limits of their existing tracks (4 daily departures each way at 8:30, noon, 2:30, and 6, 5-1/2 hour trip, with full airport amenities at Fort Lauderdale station and direct service to downtown Miami + Metrorail).
  by electricron
 
miamicanes wrote:
Floridians wishing to ride a train between Tampa or Orlando and Miami can switch trains in Jacksonville.
You can't be serious. Nobody, ever, is going to travel to Tampa or Orlando via Jacksonville.

Amtrak can split trains in Jacksonville and get away with it, but if they literally tried to divert one of their two daily trains away from Orlando, and made travel between South Florida and Orlando possible ONLY via 2-hour detour through Tampa, they would kill their in-state market for travel between South Florida and Orlando *dead* unless they introduced two new corridor trains, each making a daily round trip between Miami and Orlando (from opposite ends) to make up for it.
I'll agree. But that's what Amtrak has done in Texas, so what's good for the goose is good for the gander. Amtrak hasn't provided direct Dallas to Houston service in over a decade (the nations 4th and 5th largest metros). Why should Amtrak provide inter-city, intra-state trains in Florida when they don't do so in Texas?

Those wanting to take a train from Dallas to Houston board the Texas Eagle at 11:50 am. They arrive in San Antonio at 9:55 pm. May need to find a hotel room for the night because the Sunset Limited runs only three days a week (TuFrSu). Board the Sunset Limited at 1 am when it does run. Then arrive in Houston at 6:15 am. To go 250 miles by air, it takes at least 18 hours and 25 minutes by trains (when the Texas Eagle and the Sunset Limited run on time, and on the same days).

At least in Florida, both trains are daily trains.
Last edited by electricron on Sun Apr 03, 2011 2:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
  by miamicanes
 
> Why should Amtrak provide inter-city, intra-state trains in Florida when they don't do so in Texas?

Because Orlando-West Palm/Fort Lauderdale/Miami is one of the few in-state segments where Amtrak actually makes a net profit.

That's part of the reason why Florida has never been willing to pay Amtrak for in-state corridor service -- everyone, including Amtrak, knows Orlando-Miami, even with 5-1/2 hour trains, is a profitable passenger route. Florida talks to Amtrak, Amtrak quotes a price that you'd expect to see for subsidized travel between two coal towns in Appalachia, Florida offers to pay a much smaller amount plus cover any actual loss, Amtrak says no, and Florida tells them to go to hell.

Every now and then, private companies (Virgin Trains rumored to be among them) show up in Tallahassee and inquire about the possibility of running trains between Miami, Orlando, and Tampa along the existing tracks. FDOT sighs, and tells them to talk to CSX (already knowing what the answer is going to be, because it's been through it before). CSX says no, and tells them to tell FDOT that it might be willing to sell some corridor at prices so outrageously expensive, Florida might as well just build HSR along 95, 528, and I-4 and be through with it. Amtrak no longer has a legal monopoly on passenger rail in the US, but they're the only entity that can force private railroads to let them operate passenger trains.

IMHO, that pretty much sums up the dilemma HSR supporters have in Florida. Our governor is an ass, the only entity we can use to ram trains down his throat is Amtrak, and Amtrak would love to use Florida to subsidize its operations in the rest of the country (using profits from Miami-Orlando-Tampa to subsidize trains in West Virginia instead of using the money to expand service to more cities in Florida). And when, in a rare moment of schadenfreude, Florida HSR supporters were ready to deal with the devil and hand Florida to Amtrak on a gold platter just so we could do an end-run around the governor, Amtrak turned around and declined the offer with the kind of excuse you'd have expected to see from a Soviet bureaucrat instead of a lean, hungry startup company with an opportunity to grab market share and cement a nearly-permanent advantage for itself ("Our employees are busy, and it's too late to budget for more. Maybe next year.")

I can almost see Sir Richard Branson eating breakfast somewhere with his iPad, reading the news, reading Amtrak's response, groaning in disbelief that even a government-run quasi-company could possibly do something that short-sighted and stupid, then sighing because it means there's still hope he might be able to save Florida from itself someday. I have to admit that out of everyone who might someday build passenger trains in Florida, Branson's my favorite, just because he's the only one who really, truly RUNS a real private company that knows how to be popular and profitable. Plus, I LOVE their commercials:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SYZOgNJ9eXM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hsc6joUzgcY
  by george matthews
 
I have to admit that out of everyone who might someday build passenger trains in Florida, Branson's my favorite, just because he's the only one who really, truly RUNS a real private company that knows how to be popular and profitable. Plus, I LOVE their commercials:
1. Virgin trains is at least 50% owned by Stagecoach, in origin a bus company.
2. It is a franchise company. That is, it has to supply the service specified by the Office of Rail Regulation. It may or may not pay for this franchise, or receive a subsidy. I can't remember the details at present.
3. His airline may or may not be profitable.

I think you will find that the overall cost of franchising is higher than direct operation, as by British Rail. Fares are much higher.
  by miamicanes
 
Yeah, but if my memory serves me right, that's the exact role they would have had in Florida had the original HSR amendment survived, and more or less the role they would have had if their consortium won the bid before our beloved governor pulled the plug and gave our money to California.
  by miamicanes
 
I'm still looking for the Amtrak breakdown, but in the meantime, here's a report prepared by FDOT exploring the profitability of various passenger routes in Florida using more or less existing rail infrastructure -- http://www.dot.state.fl.us/rail/Publica ... tFinal.pdf

The key points:

Corridor service between Tampa, Orlando, and Miami along Amtrak's current route, with no improvements to existing infrastructure whatsoever: operating ratio of 1.00 (no profit, but no loss; net operating expenses equal net revenue). This isn't in the executive report I linked above, it's only in the full 300-page report someonewhere online.

If minimal upgrades are made to the existing CSX tracks to allow 110mph operation over most of the route, along with the improvements that are/were supposed to have been done for SunRail east of Auburndale, the operating ratio becomes 1.02 (ie, for every $1.02 in revenue, operating expenses are $1.00). AFAIK, these are improvements that are fairly cheap, and FDOT has always taken them for granted as a baseline norm if corridor service along existing CSX tracks to Miami were implemented (hence, the exclusion of the "no improvements whatsoever" option from the executive report).

The main constraint on both the above is the limited potential for additional trains into Tampa. CSX just plain doesn't want them, and has made it clear to FDOT that they might tolerate a pair of trains each making one daily round trip between Tampa and Miami, but that's *it*. Period. To go beyond that, and/or make Tampa-Jacksonville service a viable option, FDOT has to at least build a single new track along the northern edge of CSX between Tampa and Auburndale.

If that track were built, corridor service between Miami-Tampa, Miami-Orlando, and Tampa-Orlando-Jacksonville would have a net operating ratio of 1.30. FDOT doesn't like to talk about this option much, because 1) it's a pretty mediocre vision for passenger rail in Florida, but it's also likely to be the most politically-appealing to Republican elected officials because it's the one passenger rail option that would actually make enough money from fares to recover not only the operating costs, but the capital construction costs as well... and still make a small profit above and beyond everything. However, 2) CSX won't voluntarily allow FDOT to have more than a limited-term lease on the corridor for their new track, and has made it clear that they'll fight hard and dirty to the last lawyer and make FDOT pay dearly if it insists on trying to take the ROW permanently. As a result, it would be profitable for ~25 years, then CSX could legally pull the plug and leave Florida SOL with respect to passenger rail into Tampa. Put another way, this is a stopgap measure to get viable intercity passenger service into Tampa that will easily pay for itself if fully utilized until the last day, but FDOT can't go into it without a firm exit strategy that basically entails building the Tampa-Orlando HSR route down I-4, because things will get ugly and expensive when the lease with CSX expires if they don't. Apparently, CSX *will* more or less permanently tolerate tracks on a fully grade-separated aerial structure through Lakeland, but that option would be so expensive, I-4 is actually a cheaper alternative).

The various FEC options are similar, but require new track to be viable for travel to Orlando.

If FDOT throws down the minimal track needed to allow 110mph trains between FEC and the CSX spur that runs from south of Orlando Airport to SR-528 ~6 miles east of the Greeneway so passenger trains can use FEC to get to Orlando Airport, the net operating ratio would be 107%. This is "Coastal Route, Phase 1".

If Florida were to basically build HSR-grade tracks from Tampa to Titusville, but did it in a way that used FRA-compliant trains that could also run on FEC (to permit direct service to Jacksonville and Miami), the net operating ratio would be a staggering (by passenger rail standards) 1.43.("Coastal Route, Phase 2"). THIS is part of the reason why companies like Virgin are drooling over Florida. If Florida were to resist the temptation to do non-FRA trains absent an ironclad guarantee that someone would pay to build the tracks all the way to Miami and Jacksonville in a timely manner once the initial Tampa-Orlando(-Titusville/FEC) segment were built, whomever ended up with the franchise would basically have a license to print money. I remember reading somewhere that this scenario would NOT take in enough revenue to make a profit AND pay down the capital construction costs, but WOULD take in enough to pay the interest on the construction costs (or if the feds pay 80-90%, it'll make enough to pay Florida's share of the costs) and still make a small profit. The main wildcard in THIS scenario is FEC. FEC isn't opposed to passenger rail if Florida pays to expand their track capacity, but there's probably a line somewhere around a 8-12 passenger trains per day in each direction where their patience is going to start wearing thin, and they're going to demand more substantial improvements that would push the cost closer to what brand new tracks for HSR along I-95.
  by Champlain Division
 
It is truly a depressing time to be a passenger rail advocate in this country.
  by JasW
 
I find it surprising that Miami to Orlando is profitable. It's under a four-hour drive. From the perspective of a family of four going to one of the theme parks for a long weekend, there's $300 in a round-trip ticket right off the bat, followed by another $150 or so to rent a car. That's almost $500 before you even get to the hotel/motel and theme park, versus maybe $125 in round trip gas.

If there is a future in intrastate travel from South Florida, a lot would depend on luring business travelers going to Tampa and Orlando. Right now, they take Southwest from Ft. Lauderdale, the only game in town to travel to these two destinations. I would add that if they are traveling to any place on the east coast from Melbourne to Daytona, there are no options other than either driving or flying to Orlando and renting a car. I faced this same problem when I had to travel to Daytona for a morning appointment a couple of months ago -- you can fly there from, say, NYC, but not from South Florida. I ended up driving, since that was pretty much of a wash with flying to Orlando and renting a car. If Amtrak were operating on the FEC, I of course would have happily opted for that.
  by JasW
 
Here's the DOT/Amtrak/Florida DOT service development plan for Amtrak on the FEC that was put out last August:

http://www.dot.state.fl.us/rail/FECAmtrak/08%20-%20Service%20Development%20Plan.pdf

Page 6-2 is where you will find the travel time estimate of 6:08 for the MIA-JAX corridor "assuming an increase in the highest maximum authorized speeds (MAS) on the FEC to 90 MPH and one minute dwell times at each of thirteen intermediate stations."

Not to burst anybody's bubble, but you'll find the following on page 3-2:
The existing FEC freight corridor south of the Northwood Crossover [the connector track between the FEC and SAL tracks in West Palm] was considered as an alternative alignment for the proposed passenger rail service from West Palm Beach to Miami. This alignment would require additional infrastructure and stations along the freight corridor within highly urbanized areas. This alternative alignment would involve substantially higher capital costs, right-of-way costs and environmental impacts as compared to the Preferred Alternative (the existing Amtrak route) and was therefore, eliminated from detailed analysis.


I don't get it. The FEC is double-tracked from WPB almost all of the way to Miami and is in great shape. What higher costs could they be talking about?
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