Amtrak on the Florida East Coast FEC Jacksonville - Miami

I remember the possibility of WPB connection being looked at a few years ago. The problem was with the SE corner of the cemetery right next to the Gulf Lead switch. The city was not willing to relocate the bodies/headstones. In the meantime, they built some townhouses right where the connecting track would go. A similar issue exists with a possible Lewis Terminal connection. Buildings would need to be razed in order to put a southbound connecting track in. Obviously, none of this is impossible to overcome, but it will take some local influence to accomplish.

Michael

It's worth questioning some of the "givens" we are using to make our arguments about moving/not moving the Miami station.

1. A 3-mile deadhead between Downtown and Hialeah is too far. Metra trains have, respectively, a 3.9 mile, 2.5 mile, and 4.5 mile deadhead to storage/service facilities for the MILW, Electric, and Rock Island line trains. Amtrak's Brighton Park shops are 7 miles from CUS. Sunnyside is a 3.4 mile deadhead from NYP. Is a 3 mile deadhead a big deal in Miami?

2. It's not worth making a new station for two LD trains. 20 years ago, the South Shore moved their terminal in South Bend from a rough area to the airport, which is well lit and secure. Ridership increased significantly in a market that was essentially given up but for two trains/direction. I'm sure there's a few other examples that others may be able to speak to.

Food for thought, because I think we're arguing based on some flawed assumptions in the station location issue.

Tadman wrote:It's worth questioning some of the "givens" we are using to make our arguments about moving/not moving the Miami station.

1. A 3-mile deadhead between Downtown and Hialeah is too far. Metra trains have, respectively, a 3.9 mile, 2.5 mile, and 4.5 mile deadhead to storage/service facilities for the MILW, Electric, and Rock Island line trains. Amtrak's Brighton Park shops are 7 miles from CUS. Sunnyside is a 3.4 mile deadhead from NYP. Is a 3 mile deadhead a big deal in Miami?

2. It's not worth making a new station for two LD trains. 20 years ago, the South Shore moved their terminal in South Bend from a rough area to the airport, which is well lit and secure. Ridership increased significantly in a market that was essentially given up but for two trains/direction. I'm sure there's a few other examples that others may be able to speak to.

Food for thought, because I think we're arguing based on some flawed assumptions in the station location issue.

Unfortunately, it is not nice and simple like this. Penn Station, New York is designed and intended to work in conjunction
with Sunnyside Yard. It is a straightaway through move through the East River Tunnel and to the loop tracks and in to the
yard, no reverse moves are involved and the entire train is turned in the process. In addition they have yard and relay
crews at both ends to make these moves.
Miami does not have relay crews, there are only two trains in and out. These trains use a decent track connection to the
main line, known as the "Amtrak Connection". This connection is made for the Amtrak trains to operate between their
station and the main tracks and is nearly two miles end to end.
Running these two trains down to the Airport would result in either a long back up move at slow speeds probably with more
manpower or a slow move around a wye just north of the airport that presently does not really exist, one leg is in the weeds
and hasn't been used in a long, long time. In addition, the Miami Canal bridge is the only remaining single track portion of
the Tri-Rail Line and to build an additional bridge here would cost a fortune which nobody has. It is somewhat of a bottle
neck as it is, throw four Amtrak trains into this picture and it will be a real mess.
Someplaces the physical plant is designed for the service facility to be some distance from the terminal, at Miami it is not
designed to be anywhere except where it is. Even if they were to build a station downtown, it would involve a deadhead
move to the Hialeah facility which would be a considerable distance from any station downtown.
Having ridden the Amtrak Inspection Trains in both directions as well as the existing connection between CSX and Florida
East Coast, I can truthfully say that to run the Amtrak trains past Hialeah is totally inpractical at present and it will cost a
huge amount of money to change this and the value would be little if any to Amtrak if it were to happen.
Noel Weaver

Titusville, Cocoa and Melbourne are all vying to be the station site for Brevard County.
http://www.floridatoday.com/article/201 ... for+Amtrak

"Stops in Brevard County along a proposed Amtrak route from Miami to Jacksonville are shaping up to be:

•The Pine Street historic station in Titusville, which was a stop for Amtrak in years past.

•Strawbridge Avenue [US 192] in Melbourne, on city property on the east side of railroad tracks across from the City Hall parking lot.

•Rosa L. Jones Boulevard, where a 1950s-style train station stop is located, or a site on Stone Street in Cocoa."

Tadman wrote:It's worth questioning some of the "givens" we are using to make our arguments about moving/not moving the Miami station.

1. A 3-mile deadhead between Downtown and Hialeah is too far. Metra trains have, respectively, a 3.9 mile, 2.5 mile, and 4.5 mile deadhead to storage/service facilities for the MILW, Electric, and Rock Island line trains. Amtrak's Brighton Park shops are 7 miles from CUS. Sunnyside is a 3.4 mile deadhead from NYP. Is a 3 mile deadhead a big deal in Miami?

In the case of Metra, at least on the Milwaukee Side, the moves are made fromthe leading end, i.e. the cab car, and as such can prodeed at normal speed according to the rules., and I believe this is the case with Amtrak moves to and from Brighton Park, controled from the leading end. My understanding is that in Miami, the moves, while having a conductor on the point and having a tail hose applied as is required by AMT-3 AND the CSXT, this would be a true shove move, controled from other then leading end, which complicates things to some degree. ( much like a pin up or relay crew shoving a train into CUS from 14th street, or a road crew backing in a train after having wyed coming in to CUS.

Without advocating any one station location, and with full deference to Mr. Weaver, who is certainly familiar with the area and operation, I would post this one question: wouldn't an engine such as a BLGH-20 (pardon if the designation is in the wrong order) that MNRR uses (HEP capable) be useful in such a situation? I.e. the train arrives, the BL pulls in behind it, hooks on, the P42's detach (or not, and again, pardon if des. is wrong), and brings the coaches (and perhaps engines) to Hialeah? The engines then run around, and for the return trip to station, the BL is in the lead and detaches at station?

Sarge wrote:Without advocating any one station location, and with full deference to Mr. Weaver, who is certainly familiar with the area and operation, I would post this one question: wouldn't an engine such as a BLGH-20 (pardon if the designation is in the wrong order) that MNRR uses (HEP capable) be useful in such a situation? I.e. the train arrives, the BL pulls in behind it, hooks on, the P42's detach (or not, and again, pardon if des. is wrong), and brings the coaches (and perhaps engines) to Hialeah? The engines then run around, and for the return trip to station, the BL is in the lead and detaches at station?

the issue is partly that of the Road crew that would most likely have to continue to sign up and sign off at the current facility.. are you then going to CAB them to and from the train at the new station, or are you better off haveing them make the movement to and from the yard? You certainly COULD have a yard job assigned with an engine to make the move, buut that is redundant with the road power on the other end.

In Chicago trains are moved from the yard to the Station with the road power, if the train is set up push pull, then the leading end is used, otherwise they operate form other then leading end. The same applies in Seattle with trains 11 & 14 for example. is backed out of the station to the wye then bakced to the yard and the next morning is backed into the station., but again the distance is not as great.

Of the station options, I'm pulling for Cocoa, FL rather than Titusville or Melbourne. At Titusville, you have the space community as a big draw as it's directly across the river from the space center. At Melbourne however, you'd get more beach traffic, but at Cocoa, you get both. It's not as close to the space center, but it's not far either, and Cocoa Beach, is directly across from it which would also have the beach traffic. But this is just random guessing from someone who has zip experience in the field of rail traffic management.

MattW wrote:Of the station options, I'm pulling for Cocoa, FL rather than Titusville or Melbourne. At Titusville, you have the space community as a big draw as it's directly across the river from the space center. At Melbourne however, you'd get more beach traffic, but at Cocoa, you get both. It's not as close to the space center, but it's not far either, and Cocoa Beach, is directly across from it which would also have the beach traffic. But this is just random guessing from someone who has zip experience in the field of rail traffic management.

Plans are to have stations in all three cities; Titusville, Cocoa and Melbourne. They plan to have eight intermediate stops
between Jacksonville and West Palm Beach as follows: St. Augustine, Daytona Beach, Titusville, Cocoa, Melbourne, Vero
Beach, Fort Pierce and Stuart.
Noel Weaver

Ah, good. I read one of the posts above as the three cities competing to be the one station in the county. I should have read the article first. Thanks for the correction!

I dont think we're making assumptions so much as we're merely speculating on the final outcome. Connecting the FEC and CSX has a multitude of possibilities which probably would depend on station location. That connection becomes moot if they decide to go downtown. A low speed connection would then be adaquet for getting the train from downtown to the currrent maintenance facilities. The speculation makes for good conversation with the input of ideas that one may not have considered.

In the July, 2010 issue of Railfan and Railroad there is a fantastic picture of the Amtrak special northbound on the
Jacksonville Bridge. It is on page 21 and I am pleased to see that this magazine gave this operation some publicity. The
picture alone is worth the price of the magazine in my opinion.
Along the same subject, Railroad Press for july, August and September, 2010 has a huge feature about the Florida East
Coast with a lot of interesting pictures some old and some recent but all diesels and trains. This is an interesting issue of a
decent magazine although it often has a few errors in it and this one is no exception to that.
Noel Weaver

We should note that Mr. Weaver is "notable and quotable":

http://www.examiner.com/x-10977-Jackson ... trains-run

Brief passage:

• Earlier, Noel Weaver Jr. wrote, “I just got word tonight that the application for the federal funds went in today, which was the deadline. I think we have an excellent chance to see passenger service on the FEC before too long. It appears that everybody involved is very much in favor of this. I know Amtrak wants it.” Weaver is a retired Conrail locomotive engineer and was heavily involved in getting Amtrak’s demonstration train to the FEC in May.

The article says two round trips a day. I always thought is was to be only one, at least to start. Anyone?

Florida is getting ready for round 3 and is willing to offer 44% in state matching funds.

The Florida Department of Transportation is proposing to put up $118 million to bring back passenger rail service to the Jacksonville-Miami line if the federal government kicks in the remaining $150 million.

http://www.bizjournals.com/southflorida ... ercomments