Amtrak on the Florida East Coast FEC Jacksonville - Miami

The original canopy of the Ocala Amtrak station was taken down to provide clearance for those many freight trains. However, the intention is to restore the original canopy, but about 1 1/2 feet farther away from the tracks to meet the new clearance distance requirements.

Sadly, I agree with you that passenger train service is unlikely to be restored to Ocala. I have taken the Amtrak Bus several times, but more often have driven to DeLand or Palatka to connect with the Silver Meteor.

I won't take the bus out of stubbornness. I consider Deland (S/B) and Palatka (N/B) my "home stations" now.

OCL1 wrote:The original canopy of the Ocala Amtrak station was taken down to provide clearance for those many freight trains. However, the intention is to restore the original canopy, but about 1 1/2 feet farther away from the tracks to meet the new clearance distance requirements.

Sadly, I agree with you that passenger train service is unlikely to be restored to Ocala. I have taken the Amtrak Bus several times, but more often have driven to DeLand or Palatka to connect with the Silver Meteor.

That's a pity as it's a very interesting looking station, with its secondary line crossing. Really, removal of the canopy looks like vandalism to me.

> There is still hope that regular operation of passenger trains could again be a part of downtown Miami.

IMHO, the best hope for a downtown station would be as the final passenger stop after the airport (or first departure before it). Basically, heading from downtown Miami north to 79th street, west to SFRC, then backing up into MIC before continuing north as usual (using Hialeah for maintenance & storage, but using MIC & downtown for actual passengers). It wouldn't be any faster than getting off at MIC and taking Metrorail downtown, but might have some appeal as an alternative to the disruption and hassle of transferring. It would make no sense whatsoever to do this just for Amtrak, but might be worth considering if Tri-Rail were to do it. I remember reading about this a couple of years ago as an idea being floated by Tri-Rail... banking on commuters from further north trading a longer total ride in exchange for less total interruption along the way.

Thinking about it more, it's not even without precedent. Tri-Rail's storage and maintenance facility is right next to the Hialeah Amtrak station, yet its trains have been using (more or less) the same patch of ground that will eventually be MIC for the past few years.

In any case, a downtown station for Amtrak would be almost completely useless unless there were evening trains between Miami, Orlando, Tampa, and Jacksonville. Downtown Miami isn't exactly a major destination for cross-state leisure travel (the main people who'd be using the train today), and there won't be a market for business travel by rail between Tampa/Orlando and Miami until it's possible to take a train that leaves late enough to work a normal day, and arrives at a halfway sane hour (say, 6:30-7pm departure, 10:30-11:30pm arrival). Proximity to South Beach is meaningless, because as noted, most tourists end up needing a car in Miami anyway. By car and via 112, MIC is almost exactly the same travel time from South Beach as any station in downtown Miami would be.

miamicanes wrote:> There is still hope that regular operation of passenger trains could again be a part of downtown Miami.

IMHO, the best hope for a downtown station would be as the final passenger stop after the airport (or first departure before it). Basically, heading from downtown Miami north to 79th street, west to SFRC, then backing up into MIC before continuing north as usual (using Hialeah for maintenance & storage, but using MIC & downtown for actual passengers). It wouldn't be any faster than getting off at MIC and taking Metrorail downtown, but might have some appeal as an alternative to the disruption and hassle of transferring. It would make no sense whatsoever to do this just for Amtrak, but might be worth considering if Tri-Rail were to do it. I remember reading about this a couple of years ago as an idea being floated by Tri-Rail... banking on commuters from further north trading a longer total ride in exchange for less total interruption along the way.

Thinking about it more, it's not even without precedent. Tri-Rail's storage and maintenance facility is right next to the Hialeah Amtrak station, yet its trains have been using (more or less) the same patch of ground that will eventually be MIC for the past few years.

In any case, a downtown station for Amtrak would be almost completely useless unless there were evening trains between Miami, Orlando, Tampa, and Jacksonville. Downtown Miami isn't exactly a major destination for cross-state leisure travel (the main people who'd be using the train today), and there won't be a market for business travel by rail between Tampa/Orlando and Miami until it's possible to take a train that leaves late enough to work a normal day, and arrives at a halfway sane hour (say, 6:30-7pm departure, 10:30-11:30pm arrival). Proximity to South Beach is meaningless, because as noted, most tourists end up needing a car in Miami anyway. By car and via 112, MIC is almost exactly the same travel time from South Beach as any station in downtown Miami would be.

I will still maintain that it would not make any sense for Amtrak to move from a facility that they already own to one miles
away that they would not own. Tri-Rail operation is much simpler with a three or four car train that is a push/pull
operation and would not require a long reverse move back to the maintenance base or yard. There is no legitimate reason
for Amtrak to move to the Miami Airport and I doubt very much if they will.
Noel Weaver

I have followed this topic with interest as Southeast Florida is somewhere I go in this life.

Even after reviewing the postings since i last submitted material to the topic, I continue to hold that the only reason Amtrak could consider operating trains the additional two miles to the existing Tri Rail Airport station would be access to rental autos for whatever passengers Amtrak handles desire such for local transportation.

The existing Amtrak Miami station site was hardly selected for the convenience of passengers; rather for the convenience of servicing equipment. Was that a wise choice? if one views the convenience of an end point for the existing 'two a day' (essentially "one a day' in view of how the existing schedule has them chasing one another's markers), which contribute virtually nothing to the commerce of Dade County, then Amtrak made a wise choice. Even though the structure is adequately attractive and the perimeter reasonably secure, the neighborhood does not exactly beckon out with 'what a great place to start my rail adventure' (of course, there is nothing too nautical about Dodge Island).

Even if I personally am in the "always rent' (autos) demographic (hey, I have one at home; why should I be without if I am on a trip?), I must respect that not everyone is. There is the population comprising the too young, too old, or too poor to even think about rental autos. Obviously both Amtrak and the auto rental concerns have collected demographics establishing these populations represent a far greater percentage of Amtrak, especially Amtrak LD, passengers than is the case for the airlines. Again, only one Amtrak station in Florida, Orlando - the busiest (#2 TPA, #3 MIA), has a staffed with autos ready to go outlet (Hertz). That in itself speaks volumes regarding how much demand existing Amtrak service generates for this----- (fill in the blank; necessity, frivolity, convenience, waste...whatever).

Finally, by way of note, how many, if any, Greyhound stations have staffed auto rental outlets?

I certainly understand the need for rental cars at train destinations. When I lived in Manhattan, I would not rent cars in the city; I would take Metro-North to Stamford to avoid the higher rates and city surcharges and taxes, and the rental offices were just across from the station. Since there are only what, two trains a day unlike in Stamford, I can see why there are no rentals located in Miami. However, in the day and age of Enterprise Car Rental and IPhones, I don't really think rental cars on site should be a hindrance. For that matter, Metro-North has a cooperative agreement with Enterprise; shouldn't Amtrak?

> Tri-Rail operation is much simpler with a three or four car train that is a push/pull
> operation and would not require a long reverse move back to the maintenance base or yard.

Doesn't Amtrak already run the trains in reverse all the way from Auburndale to Tampa?

> Finally, by way of note, how many, if any, Greyhound stations have staffed auto rental outlets?

Er, I'd argue that there's a major, MAJOR difference between the demographics of discretionary Amtrak passengers (who seem to account for the majority of Amtrak passengers, at least in Florida) and Greyhound's target demographic (people who literally couldn't afford to spend a hundred bucks more to fly).

On a related note, does Amtrak literally service, clean, and restock their Florida-bound trains at Penn Station? Or do they get the passengers off, then run the train to somewhere a few miles away to get it ready for tomorrow's trip? At the end of the day, Amtrak's MIC station is literally a platform, a ticket window, and a few hundred square feet of office and storage space. I'd venture a guess that passenger trains in Chicago, Paris, and Berlin have a longer trek from the boarding platform to the maintenance yard than Amtrak would have between Hialeah and MIC.

Just to illustrate how close together they are for anyone not intimately familiar with Miami geography, here's a Google map showing the distance (the actual track & stations are 1/8 mile further east of the plotted path for obvious technical reasons) -- literally, 3.7 miles.

miamicanes wrote:> Tri-Rail operation is much simpler with a three or four car train that is a push/pull
> operation and would not require a long reverse move back to the maintenance base or yard.

Doesn't Amtrak already run the trains in reverse all the way from Auburndale to Tampa?

> Finally, by way of note, how many, if any, Greyhound stations have staffed auto rental outlets?

Er, I'd argue that there's a major, MAJOR difference between the demographics of discretionary Amtrak passengers (who seem to account for the majority of Amtrak passengers, at least in Florida) and Greyhound's target demographic (people who literally couldn't afford to spend a hundred bucks more to fly).

On a related note, does Amtrak literally service, clean, and restock their Florida-bound trains at Penn Station? Or do they get the passengers off, then run the train to somewhere a few miles away to get it ready for tomorrow's trip? At the end of the day, Amtrak's MIC station is literally a platform, a ticket window, and a few hundred square feet of office and storage space. I'd venture a guess that passenger trains in Chicago, Paris, and Berlin have a longer trek from the boarding platform to the maintenance yard than Amtrak would have between Hialeah and MIC.

Just to illustrate how close together they are for anyone not intimately familiar with Miami geography, here's a Google map showing the distance (the actual track & stations are 1/8 mile further east of the plotted path for obvious technical reasons) -- literally, 3.7 miles.

Having run trains in and out of Penn Station, New York east to New Haven for quite some time, I am well aware of the lay
of the land in that area. All long distance trains and many other trains as well go east from Penn Station under the East
River and at old Tower F, they cross out and use a loop track passing through a car wash machine in the process then
turning the entire train before entering a yard track at "R". Sunnyside Yard is by a wide margin the largest passenger car
yard in the United States and probably much of the world as well. Both Sunnyside and Hialeah perform running maintenance
on Amtrak equipment. Places like New Orleans, Hialeah and a couple of places in California are useful as they can work on
equipment under warm weather conditions in the winter time when entire trains can freeze up under certain conditions.
I don't know just how much equipment is assigned to Hialeah for maintenance but they do air brake work among other jobs
there. In New York there are no repairs done normally at Penn Station, it is a stop to pick up or discharge passengers and
repairs, stocking and servicing all take place at Sunnyside Yard. Penn Station, New York is by far the busiest passenger
station in North America and it has only 17 through station tracks and 4 stub end station tracks for west/south bound trains.
There is basically no maintenance done at Penn Station. Usually they use yard T & E people to move the trains to and from
Sunnyside Yard.
As for the operation of trains 92 and 91 to and From Tampa, these trains from Miami use the west leg of the wye at
Auburndale and proceed to Maimi from Miami. Tampa has a stub end station and they have to back out and turn on a wye
outside of the station before they head out using the same trackage to Auburndale and beyond. Trains 97 and 98 use the
east leg of the wye at Auburndale and it is a straight move for these trains too.
Maybe by reading this, you have a better idea of the operation of Amtrak trains between New York and Miami one running
direct and the other via Tampa. Maybe now I have convinced you that with the present set up, it would not be practical
for Amtrak to use a station at the Miami Airport.
Noel Weaver

With all due respect, I really don't see why it would be such a big, huge deal to do the servicing and restocking at Hialeah like they do now, but move the trains 3.7 miles south to the platform at MIC shortly before departure, and move the trains 3.7 miles north to Hialeah after the last passenger gets off at MIC after arrival. It's double-tracked, there's almost no freight activity on those tracks to speak of (especially during Tri-Rail's operating hours), and there's only one Tri-Rail station (Hialeah Market) between Amtrak's yard and MIC. Absolute worst-case, the train being moved between Hialeah and MIC would be delayed by 30 seconds waiting for a stopped Tri-Rail train at that one station. If there's a major logistical problem, I'm really not seeing it.

By using MIC, Amtrak would instantly become a first-rate transportation mode into and out of Miami, with access to every local ground transportation resource and amenity available to passengers coming and going by air. FDOT is literally spending a billion dollars to build a world-class transportation facility -- one that will ultimately be one of (if not *the*) finest passenger rail facilities in America. Not the biggest, and not the busiest... but absolutely the most jaw-droppingly impressive and convenient for arriving and departing passengers. If anything, the biggest real-world problem Amtrak will have from MIC is the fact that it's going to set passenger expectations so high (esp. for passengers whose first Amtrak experience begins at MIC), every other station in America (even New York and Washington) will end up looking downright ghetto by comparison. On the other hand, MIC will give Amtrak a station that goes almost as far over the top as the new stations in China to show off in its video, print, and online advertisements and public relations materials. Anyone care to bet how many months it would be until someone at Amtrak got the bright idea of towing an Acela trainset down to Miami so they could push it into MIC long enough to take lots of pics showing it off in their shiny, sexy new station and use them in their marketing materials for the next 5 years?

Just to illustrate how close together they are for anyone not intimately familiar with Miami geography, here's a Google map showing the distance (the actual track & stations are 1/8 mile further east of the plotted path for obvious technical reasons) -- literally, 3.7 miles.

Where exactly on that map is the MIC?

As far as I am concerned the right place for a mainline train station is the centre of town. If it's as good as you say, the sooner there can be more trains using it the better. Trains to Chicago for example? Local statewide trains?

miamicanes wrote:With all due respect, I really don't see why it would be such a big, huge deal to do the servicing and restocking at Hialeah like they do now, but move the trains 3.7 miles south to the platform at MIC shortly before departure, and move the trains 3.7 miles north to Hialeah after the last passenger gets off at MIC after arrival. It's double-tracked, there's almost no freight activity on those tracks to speak of (especially during Tri-Rail's operating hours), and there's only one Tri-Rail station (Hialeah Market) between Amtrak's yard and MIC. Absolute worst-case, the train being moved between Hialeah and MIC would be delayed by 30 seconds waiting for a stopped Tri-Rail train at that one station. If there's a major logistical problem, I'm really not seeing it.

By using MIC, Amtrak would instantly become a first-rate transportation mode into and out of Miami, with access to every local ground transportation resource and amenity available to passengers coming and going by air. FDOT is literally spending a billion dollars to build a world-class transportation facility -- one that will ultimately be one of (if not *the*) finest passenger rail facilities in America. Not the biggest, and not the busiest... but absolutely the most jaw-droppingly impressive and convenient for arriving and departing passengers. If anything, the biggest real-world problem Amtrak will have from MIC is the fact that it's going to set passenger expectations so high (esp. for passengers whose first Amtrak experience begins at MIC), every other station in America (even New York and Washington) will end up looking downright ghetto by comparison. On the other hand, MIC will give Amtrak a station that goes almost as far over the top as the new stations in China to show off in its video, print, and online advertisements and public relations materials. Anyone care to bet how many months it would be until someone at Amtrak got the bright idea of towing an Acela trainset down to Miami so they could push it into MIC long enough to take lots of pics showing it off in their shiny, sexy new station and use them in their marketing materials for the next 5 years?

I guess you know all the answers so I have had enough with you.
Noel Weaver

> Where exactly on that map is the MIC?

MIC is currently under construction, slated for completion in 2012. It's located north of the Melreese Golf Course on the Google map, bounded by the canal on the south, SR953/NW42 Ave/LeJeune Road on the west (the road the purple marker actually follows), NW 37th Avenue on the east, and its northern boundary is a few blocks north of the canal (not sure exactly where).

You can read all about it at http://micdot.com (the rail-specific part is "Miami Central Station").

As far as whether or not Miami's station should be downtown, at this point it's academic. MIC is funded and under construction right now. Having spent an unholy amount of money to build MIC at the airport, FDOT isn't going to pay to build another facility like it downtown (Orlando is next in line, and I'll be shocked if Tallahassee, Jacksonville, and Tampa haven't been coming up with their own projects to match it). Without FDOT funding, a station downtown won't happen. Miami (the City of) can't afford to do it on its own, and the county is loath to fund anything located in the City of Miami.

Politically, MIC's location is highly strategic. It lies at the western edge of the City of Miami, but is less than 2 miles north and southeast of downtown Coral Gables and downtown Hialeah. People can argue about the relative importance of Miami, Miami Beach, Coral Gables, and Hialeah, but basically Hialeah is #2 by population, and Coral Gables is #2 by downtown urbanity and total wealth (think: Beverly Hills vs Los Angeles).

If you look at this Google Map, the location's choice might make a bit more sense. This map shows the location of MIC (just north of the golf course) relative to downtown Hialeah (marker "A") and downtown Coral Gables (marker "B"). MIC's train station will be located more or less where the 'train' icon (representing the current Airport Tri-Rail station) is located now. The main difference is that now, you have to take a shuttle bus to get to the station. When MIC is complete, there will be a peoplemover running between the airport terminal and MIC, and the new Metrorail station will be above it (the new Metrorail tracks are under construction now).

Even if FDOT had the money and willingness to buy ROW, build/refurbish track, and build a new station downtown, I'd almost argue that the same money would be better spent extending the line west along CSX next to SR836, south alongside the Turnpike to the CSX ROW along SR874, then southwest to a new passenger station at the edge of Metrozoo along SW 152 St. Approximate Route; A=MIC, B=Metrozoo Station. I might be wrong, but I think the building that housed the Gold Coast Railroad Museum (before Andrew destroyed it in 1992) at the site I'm describing actually was a (minor) passenger rail station (serving the military base formerly on the site) until the 1940s.

Really, my biggest complaint about MIC is the fact that neither Dade County nor the City of Miami (I think both have jurisdiction over the area) have made any plans to enable (let alone encourage) high-value (but obviously low-height) commercial development surrounding what will ultimately be the most incredibly well-connected square kilometer of land in South Florida. As a result, the only major business establishment not related to the airport within walking distance of MIC on opening day is likely to be an adult superstore with 24/7 nude dancers -- the single most profitable business you CAN put into repurposed warehouses in an area zoned only for 'industrial' uses (which happens to include 'nightclubs', since industrial areas are one of the few places new nightclubs can go without causing noise and parking problems to surrounding businesses and residents).

If they were to use the current facility, all that would be needed is a connecting track in the northeast quadrant of the diamond at "Iris". This is where the CSX and FEC cross on the FEC's "beltline". The first stop after the turnout would be the 79th street station of Tri-Rail where passengers could detrain. After this would be the Miami Amtrak station. Some logistics would need to be worked out to get a train into the station from the south end. If the MIC were to be used, a turnout could be installed in the southeast quadrant of the diamond. Trains could terminate at the MIC and then make a reverse move into the wye just north of MIC to go back north to the maintenance facilities. For the sake of money saving, the former would probably be the best move to get the ball rolling. They could always move to the new facility in the future if it would be more to their benefit. It will be interesting to see which station they ultimately go with.

rrmike1 wrote:If they were to use the current facility, all that would be needed is a connecting track in the northeast quadrant of the diamond at "Iris". This is where the CSX and FEC cross on the FEC's "beltline". The first stop after the turnout would be the 79th street station of Tri-Rail where passengers could detrain. After this would be the Miami Amtrak station. Some logistics would need to be worked out to get a train into the station from the south end. If the MIC were to be used, a turnout could be installed in the southeast quadrant of the diamond. Trains could terminate at the MIC and then make a reverse move into the wye just north of MIC to go back north to the maintenance facilities. For the sake of money saving, the former would probably be the best move to get the ball rolling. They could always move to the new facility in the future if it would be more to their benefit. It will be interesting to see which station they ultimately go with.

Unless they decide to go downtown, I think you will see the connection at West Palm Beach fixed up to allow a straight away
move south from the FEC to CSX/Tri-Rail and the existing line used from West Palm to Miami (Hialeah). If Amtrak were to
use the FEC south of West Palm the big reason would probably be to get to downtown Miami, otherwise they might just as
well do it at West Palm and use existing facilities from there to Miami.
Noel Weaver