All things Pennsylvanian AND Keystone West

Actually, Mr. Wolf, "two a day" Wash-Pgh over the B&O did survive until A-Day.

According to my March 1971 Guide, when everything was frozen until A-Day, the second train was the Shenadoah, which was essentially the Wash-Chi Express. The RDC's had been relegated to the Wash and Pgh commuter service.

And yes, there was quite a commuter system in Pittsburgh. In addition to the B&O, the PRR had theirs as well. I can remember "during The War" when our family resided in Sewickley, waiting at the station for my Father to return from his ostensibly war related job and watching the steam locomotives at work. I definitely recall seeing from my school playground double headed trains handling war materiel.

STrRedWolf wrote:Let us use a closer example here. Baltimore to Pittsburgh.

Cheapest air fare via BWI Airport is $200 round trip, but because Pittsburgh's airport is out in the boondocks, you're ether renting a car or paying $50 for a Supershuttle round-trip. Amtrak? $175, and you're in the heart of Pittsburgh.

Or you could take the 28 bus for like $3 which drops you off downtown.

I'm fairly certain the RDCs used for that service went to MARC. One is still used at the B&O museum. When I was kid, I rode on the last trip of the PAT commuter train. And was surprised when I was older to be riding on some of the gear on MARC.

Philly Amtrak Fan wrote:If I had my way, I'd reroute the CL through the Pennsylvanian route

If you had your way, you'd reroute the Cardinal, the Sunset Limited, the Rocky Mountaineer, and the Trans-Europe Express through the Pennsylvanian route

CNJGeep wrote:

STrRedWolf wrote:Let us use a closer example here. Baltimore to Pittsburgh.

Cheapest air fare via BWI Airport is $200 round trip, but because Pittsburgh's airport is out in the boondocks, you're ether renting a car or paying $50 for a Supershuttle round-trip. Amtrak? $175, and you're in the heart of Pittsburgh.

Or you could take the 28 bus for like $3 which drops you off downtown.

28X bus, two blocks away from the hotel (three going the other way), detours half-way through the highway, and takes longer. The only good thing through is that it's BRT, using dedicated busways, for a good chunk of the trip. Yes, I took it. I think Supershuttle is a bit better.

mtuandrew wrote:

Philly Amtrak Fan wrote:If I had my way, I'd reroute the CL through the Pennsylvanian route

If you had your way, you'd reroute the Cardinal, the Sunset Limited, the Rocky Mountaineer, and the Trans-Europe Express through the Pennsylvanian route

Let's not go that far.

I would say either the Capitol or the Cardinal, not both.

STrRedWolf wrote:Let us use a closer example here. Baltimore to Pittsburgh.

Cheapest air fare via BWI Airport is $200 round trip, but because Pittsburgh's airport is out in the boondocks, you're ether renting a car or paying $50 for a Supershuttle round-trip. Amtrak? $175, and you're in the heart of Pittsburgh.

Or MARC to WAS, then the Cap Limited is $41.00

Yeah, and you get into Pittsburgh at MIDNIGHT! That's a **** no in my book. I'd take the Cap Limited to Chicago for Midwest FurFest, but that's an overnighter, and that's past a "day's travel" threshold I currently have (as I'm still feeling out my company's leave policy).

The Capitol limited is backwards. It connects the biggest cities In the most time competitive section (pgh-chi) in the middle of the night while putting the outrageously slow ride through small places (pgh-was) during the day. As with all things, local traffic takes a backseat to transfer traffic

That truth is true for just about every other Amtrak long distance trains.
Don't believe me, check out all the other long distance trains arrival and departure times in Chicago.

I don't disagree with your comment about the CL schedule. The problem is the CL has lots of endpoint to endpoint traffic. 29.7% of CL passengers travel over 700 miles (the route is 764 miles) and Chicago-Washington is the #1 most popular city pair. Anyone traveling from Chicago and west to Washington DC normally takes the CL. If the train left Chicago early enough to arrive in Pittsburgh (and serve Ohio) before midnight it would leave way too early to make a same day connection from the Southwest Chief, California Zephyr, or Texas Eagle. Also, it is at the time the primary route for travel south of DC (Carolinas, Atlanta, Florida) to Chicago (connection to Silver Meteor/Crescent) and for now a connection in Pittsburgh to the Pennsylvanian (even though the times and Pittsburgh's station are horrible). They had a report about fixing the problems in Chicago (CREATE) which showed significant transfer volume at both ends and at Pittsburgh. A significantly earlier eastbound and later westbound would benefit Pittsburgh, Cleveland, and Toledo but would hurt connections on either end. I think you could slightly shift the eastbound schedule to leave Chicago later and the westbound schedule to arrive in Chicago earlier without too much damage to the connections in Washington but I think a major shift to benefit Ohio would mess up connections from the west too much. In reality, a third Chicago-East Coast train is to me the best way to serve northern Ohio outside the graveyard shift (and would create a direct train to Philly).

The train serving Chicago that makes the most sense to shift the schedule is by far the Cardinal. You can make the same argument about Chi-Ind-Cin having horrible times as well (graveyard shift in Cin, close to graveyard shift in Ind). Only 9% of Cardinal passengers travel more than 900 miles (Chi-Was is 921 miles, Chi-NY is 1146) and those passengers are better off taking the CL or Lake Shore Limited. So you're better off scheduling it to benefit its two most populous regions outside of Chicago and the NEC, Indianapolis and Cincinnati. In fact, way back in 1981 the Cardinal did travel between Washington and Cincinnati during the graveyard shift (http://www.timetables.org/full.php?grou ... &item=0035" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;). I would probably schedule it to leave Charlottesville (the 2nd highest ridership on the route) before midnight westbound and arrive after 7am eastbound but Cincinnati needs to be outside the graveyard shift. To me if you don't reschedule the train it's worthless.

Mr. Philly Fan, I'm not sure to what extent this fact affects your immediate thoughts, but lest we forget, that during the "W-Gang's" Freight initiative, The Pennsylvanian was an NY-CHI daylight scheduled train. It existed for the freight, and when the freight went Adios, so did the extended train.

Philly Amtrak Fan wrote: I don't disagree with your comment about the CL schedule. The problem is the CL has lots of endpoint to endpoint traffic. 29.7% of CL passengers travel over 700 miles (the route is 764 miles) and Chicago-Washington is the #1 most popular city pair. Anyone traveling from Chicago and west to Washington DC normally takes the CL. If the train left Chicago early enough to arrive in Pittsburgh (and serve Ohio) before midnight it would leave way too early to make a same day connection from the Southwest Chief, California Zephyr, or Texas Eagle. Also, it is at the time the primary route for travel south of DC (Carolinas, Atlanta, Florida) to Chicago (connection to Silver Meteor/Crescent) and for now a connection in Pittsburgh to the Pennsylvanian (even though the times and Pittsburgh's station are horrible).

that is what was meant by taking a backseat to transfer traffic.

Philly Amtrak Fan wrote: I think a major shift to benefit Ohio would mess up connections from the west too much. In reality, a third Chicago-East Coast train is to me the best way to serve northern Ohio outside the graveyard shift (and would create a direct train to Philly).

and that's the rub, Pittsburgh Chicago gets messed up to serve connections to other trains. Chicago-CLE_TOL-CHI is relatively competitive, PGH-DC is not. it isn't just to benefit OH but Pittsburgh as well. In its own way, Amtrak is treating Pittsburgh and Ohio as "flyover country."
the majority of Pennsylvanian traffic is OD Pittsburgh even if a good chunk is transfers

Gilbert B Norman wrote:Mr. Philly Fan, I'm not sure to what extent this fact affects your immediate thoughts, but lest we forget, that during the "W-Gang's" Freight initiative, The Pennsylvanian was an NY-CHI daylight scheduled train. It existed for the freight, and when the freight went Adios, so did the extended train.

In the days the Pennsylvanian (43/44) served Chicago it terminated in Philly, not New York. That was one big problem. The other big problem was the schedule. It served both endpoints at lousy times. Sure, you could leave Cleveland at a reasonable hour but you arrive in Chicago or Philly late at night and have to leave Chicago or Philly really early in the morning which isn't much better (I'd argue I'd rather arrive/leave home during the graveyard shift than arrive/leave my destination during the graveyard shift).

http://www.timetables.org/full.php?grou ... &item=0030" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

In reality the proposed Skyline Connection (45/46) train would've been a better schedule than the Pennsylvanian. I would've had the westbound leave from New York and leave Philly before midnight and the eastbound schedule leave Chicago an hour earlier to get to Pittsburgh before midnight and also extend to New York. When I saw the Skyline in a printed timetable I thought I would stick with the Three Rivers (41) westbound but I would probably prefer the Skyline (46) over the Three Rivers (40) eastbound unless I was transferring from a West Coast train. I think the Skyline would be a base for a new "Philly train to Chicago" and give the train between CHI and PGH outside the graveyard shift.

Suburban Station wrote:

Philly Amtrak Fan wrote: I think a major shift to benefit Ohio would mess up connections from the west too much. In reality, a third Chicago-East Coast train is to me the best way to serve northern Ohio outside the graveyard shift (and would create a direct train to Philly).

and that's the rub, Pittsburgh Chicago gets messed up to serve connections to other trains. Chicago-CLE_TOL-CHI is relatively competitive, PGH-DC is not. it isn't just to benefit OH but Pittsburgh as well. In its own way, Amtrak is treating Pittsburgh and Ohio as "flyover country."
the majority of Pennsylvanian traffic is OD Pittsburgh even if a good chunk is transfers

And back when the Three Rivers was running it left Pittsburgh for Chicago earlier (11:25pm) and arrived in Pittsburgh later (8:23am) so it was better for CHI-PGH traffic than the Capitol Limited is now.

In 2016/2017, I would use the current Pennsylvanian schedule and the old Skyline schedule (extended to New York with slight changes). It would give two trains a day from PGH to CHI (counting the CL) and two trains a day from PGH to PHL/NYP. I still would push for rerouting this train via Michigan between Chicago and Toledo but a train just serving the current CL/LSL route would work. Also the old Broadway Limited/Pennsylvanian schedules when the Pennsylvanian was PGH-NYP (http://www.timetables.org/full.php?grou ... &item=0018" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;) would work although Cleveland would still be stuck in the graveyard shift. At the very least through cars between the CL and Pennsylvanian. Or if Philly/Harrisburg/Lancaster isn't good enough for a direct train to Chicago (although White Sulphur Springs is good enough) then at the very least have two trains PGH-NYP (at least this is in the planning stage).

Philly Amtrak Fan wrote: In 2016/2017, I would use the current Pennsylvanian schedule and the old Skyline schedule (extended to New York with slight changes). It would give two trains a day from PGH to CHI (counting the CL) and two trains a day from PGH to PHL/NYP. I still would push for rerouting this train via Michigan between Chicago and Toledo but a train just serving the current CL/LSL route would work. Also the old Broadway Limited/Pennsylvanian schedules when the Pennsylvanian was PGH-NYP (http://www.timetables.org/full.php?grou ... &item=0018" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;) would work although Cleveland would still be stuck in the graveyard shift. At the very least through cars between the CL and Pennsylvanian. Or if Philly/Harrisburg/Lancaster isn't good enough for a direct train to Chicago (although White Sulphur Springs is good enough) then at the very least have two trains PGH-NYP (at least this is in the planning stage).

Definitely. PGH can store two trains, and with a bit of track and station work can handle more passing through. I doubt it's middle platform is being used at all.