All things Pennsylvanian AND Keystone West

STrRedWolf wrote:Agreed. Expansion is needed. It's all low level, one platform PGH to (but not including) HAR (which I think only uses one high-level for this train). I think I expounded on things earlier in the thread, so I'll be short in describing going three track wide and two-platformed at those stations (links to Wikimapia locations):

• Lewistown: New station south of old station is cheaper due to current location.
• Huntington: Build new raised platform away from at-grade crossing, put in a bridge.
• Tyrone: Flag stop. Outside platform only. Probably won't be ADA complaint unless it gets more traffic.
• Altoona: Raise the existing platform, build a new one on other side, bridge exists already.
• Johnstown: Raise the existing island platform, and make sure there's switches around ether ends. 4 track wide already.
• Latrobe: Flag stop... but I think it has the traffic. Needs a new platform on other side, and possibly a tunnel to the old PRR station.
• Greensburg: Extend tunnel and rebuild the platforms.
• Pittsburgh: Rebuild the platforms and canopy to accommodate three parked trains, high level, bridge between tracks.

The only issue on right of way size is between PGH and Greensburg.

RW:

Unless PA agrees to fund another daily frequency (or more) between HAR and PGH no further platform expansion will be necessary...

With any high-level platforms there would need to be some sort of agreement with NS on whether they would demand gauntlet tracks be constructed. More likely a short ADA compliant platform be part of any future additions...

At one time Johnstown and Wilkinsburg (between GRB and PGH) had PRR-era high level platforms - they were the furthest west in the PRR system. The Johnstown platform was removed and replaced with the current low-level
platform back in I believe 1975...I remember that there were two island high-level platforms at JST and they both were in very deteriorated condition when they were closed and removed by Amtrak...

As long as Superliner cars are used on the Capitol Limited (#29 and #30) there more then likely will not be any thought of high-level platforms constructed at Pittsburgh...

MACTRAXX

MACTRAXX wrote: As long as Superliner cars are used on the Capitol Limited (#29 and #30) there more then likely will not be any thought of high-level platforms constructed at Pittsburgh...

There doesn't need to be all high-level at Pittsburgh. The platform where the Pennsylvanian parks at overnight can be raised (I'd rather it be moved between the two parking tracks and used), and the existing island platform used for the Capitol Limited. If a third track can be built (there's plenty of room in the station) then there would be some physical separation between the two and NS can just route the CL on one track and haul freight on the other, having a third track clear.

Here is a good story from Philly.com about the current Pennsylvanian, it's not a ride for people on a tight schedule.

http://www.philly.com/philly/business/2 ... burgh.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Ken

From the above linked article:

It's nearly 7½ hours on 350 miles of rail from Philadelphia to Pennsylvania's big city in the west. It's slower than an hour-and-15-minute flight or five-hour drive, and, at $47, comparable to the cost of tolls and gas on the Pennsylvania Turnpike. Amtrak's Pennsylvanian, which connects Pittsburgh with New York City for about 230,000 passengers a year, also leaves little room for flexibility.

I don't think that's a bad schedule at all. Later in the article they mention the average speed of 45mph. Okay, first of all, on a five hour drive, unless you're wearing diapers or you're a professional driver, you're going to need to make a pit-stop and stretch. The five hour drive is an average of 70. That's hard to maintain with a stop.

The 1:15 flight? Add an hour TSA, and the time to get to the airport and park.

Pretty stupid article.

They're just doing the comparison most do, a non-stop flight is available but not a non-stop train ride.
What would be neat is if we compare a multi-stop plane with a multi-stop train. How about adding plane stops in Newark, Philadelphia, and Harrisburgh on the flight to Pittsburgh. How long would that take?

While Mr. Smith has noted several "Pinocchios" with which I agree, the article is as fair and balanced as you will find in general circulation media. Too many articles are sourced from advocacy groups and all such have a way of suggesting that track capacity is infinite, or completely ignore that matter.

When 40-41, Three Rivers, was discontinued during '04 as part of "pruning by Bush", it would be unreasonable to expect that NS has held that dispatch slot open should Amtrak choose to restore that train. Say for example, a train load of containers consigned to a distribution center near Pittsburgh that must "absolutely positively" be there at midnight so that they can be trucked and unloaded at any number of big box retailers in the Pittsburgh area and with shelves stocked for opening.

If something like that is in play, then I think it safe assumption NS has a pretty high opportunity cost on that slot.

That article, like most, also ignores the travel time to and from the airports. Pittsburgh's airport is quite outside the city, about 30 minutes drive time. Philadelphia isn't as bad, less than 20 minutes and it's not far from destinations. I'll use Atlanta as my example though simply because I know the area. Like Philadelphia, Atlanta's airport is relatively close. Maybe 8 miles, about 15-20 minutes driving or taking transit. But at one end of the trip, people aren't going to be going to/from city center. Most of Atlanta's development is north of the city while the airport is south. People there leaving in the mornings on business trips actually pass where a downtown train station would be. On the flip side, arriving in Atlanta, it's a minimum of 18 minutes by MARTA to downtown, 24 to Mitown, another 7 (for a total of 31) to Buckhead, then another 8 or so (now at 38) for Perimeter center, the three main business centers in the region. If arriving directly into downtown however, you've immediately hacked off 18 minutes, still not counting negotiating the huge terminal at KATL.

So here's a good example, I've played with Google and a spreadsheet and drawn out a hypothetical, 220mph HSR line Atlanta to Chicago. End to end time with two minute station stops (a bit long really) is just over 5 hours. Flights dance around the two hour mark. Sounds bad, right? Well, arrive an hour early to negotiate the terminal and tsa (minimum) so that's 3 hours now. Assuming a downtown to downtown trip, add 24 minutes on the front end for Midtown to KATL, and about an hour on the back end for O'Hare to downtown, so now the flight is 4.5 hours total.

Let's see how the train does. 10 minutes Midtown to the proposed MMPT. Arrive 20 minutes before departure, 30 mintues total. 5 hours to Chicago, 5.5 hours. Let's just toss out 30 minutes to the final destination. 6 hours. It's an hour and a half longer. Not great, but hardly cut and dry. Also with trains, there's the intermediate stops. A stop on this route at 10th street in Atlanta could cut down the time for folks from Perimeter/Buckhead/Midtown to reach the train.

Another factor I'd like to throw in which may be very important to the business traveler is "productivity time." On the flight, they'd get what? Maybe an hour while airborne? (I honestly don't know, I've never flown). On the train, they basically have 5 hours (let's face it, any modern greenfield train will have decent WiFi) to work, and make phone calls. So this may go more to personal preference still, but it's something valid to consider.

I know I mostly used Atlanta for the example, but again, it's only because I'm familiar with it, I'm sure those familiar with the Pittsburgh-Philadelphia regions could do the same and show some interesting comparisons.

5 hours is a relatively long trip aboard a high speed rail train. Whether you can reach Atlanta in 5 hours is mute, a high speed rail train to Pittsburgh would have to penetrate the Appalachians/Alleghenies.

Along the Pennsylvania RR route, their's three tunnels higher than 2,000 feet. The Gallitzin and Allegheny Tunnels are 2,167 feet (at west tunnel portals), New Portage Tunnel 2,198 feet (at AR tower west of west tunnel portal).

A comparison I would like to suggest is the new Mont d'Ambin Base Tunnel for HSR between Lyon and Turin. It would be 35 miles long, at an elevation of 570 to 750 meters (1,870 to 2,460 feet). It's projected to take 10 years to build at a cost of ~10 Billion Euros ($11.25 Billion). That's just the one base tunnel.

I haven't studied what it would take, or how much it will cost, to build a HSR through the Appalachians/Alleghenies to reach Pittsburgh - I don't even think anyone has done so. Just about all the HSR plans I've read in the past place the HSR line parallel to the Empire Corridor near the Erie Canal route. It's taken France, Switzerland, and Italy over 30 years after the first TGV train service to start building this tunnel. I can think of plenty of other places in America to put $10 Billion of high speed passenger rail than the Appalachians/Alleghenies

The numbers in the philly.com article are a work of fiction.
That isn't the inkys fault so much as penndot making things up.
The reality is some investment in the line is needed. It won't cost ten billion to add a train or knock off ten minutes. Ns is typically fair or maybe that's the case only when they are dealing with their home state of Virginia.

Let us use a closer example here. Baltimore to Pittsburgh.

Cheapest air fare via BWI Airport is $200 round trip, but because Pittsburgh's airport is out in the boondocks, you're ether renting a car or paying $50 for a Supershuttle round-trip. Amtrak? $175, and you're in the heart of Pittsburgh.

Timing wise, you have to arrive at least two hours early to get through TSA if you don't get an early flight. 10 minutes to my house. It take 10-20 minutes to get to luggage claim. 45 minute flight on Southwest (direct!). Then you have to wait for the luggage to come out, and that takes another 10-30 minutes because the routing is sloooow. Add the 30+ minute ride into Pittsburgh and what do you get? Four hours, peanuts and pretzels, and if you're unlucky you get groped.

This versus eight hours, one transfer, a decent selection of food at 30th street station for lunch, halfway decent food options on train, and maybe a dog sniffing your baggage. That's it. If you shorten Pittsburgh to 30th Street Philly, it goes to seven-maybe-under hours.

Mr. Wolf: For October 3 (random date), I'm seeing $103 for 10 hrs BAL-PHL-PGH, including a 1 hour 30 minute transfer, and $66 for 9 1/2 hrs BAL-WAS-PGH with a 1 hr transfer. Capitol Limited > Pennsylvanian in your example, as long as you can deal with a late arrival.

Makes me wish Maryland and western PA could come to terms with Amtrak and CSX for another daily.

Mine was around the July 4th holiday, so it was nearly twice as much BAL-PHL-PGH (but I had a discount code, which cut it down to $153). I was meeting up with two other roomates for the convention (Anthrocon), so midnight arrival and the Capitol Limited was out of the question.

(If you want to be technical, you'd want MARC ODN-WAS, then Amtrak WAS-PGH. I was doing ODN-BAL/BAL-PHL-PGH, namely because I'm a commuter ODN-BAL and have a monthly MARC ticket.)

On more Capitol Limited, OH PLEASE YES. The current timing just plain sucks for me, and I'd love to get four trains in both directions there (2 Capitol Limited, 2 Pennsylvanians).

STrRedWolf wrote:On more Capitol Limited, OH PLEASE YES. The current timing just plain sucks for me, and I'd love to get four trains in both directions there (2 Capitol Limited, 2 Pennsylvanians).

Well Mr. Red Wolf, better forget the second daylight frequency, as that was the B&O Daylight Speedliner. The consist was Budd RDC's (DMU in Newspeak) - and Amtrak has definitely has an aversion to self-propelled equipment.

I wouldn't be surprised if they scrapped the RDC's, given that Budd no longer exists. I think two up to Chicago and two back will do, 12 hours apart.

Why do we need another Capitol Limited? Are there any relevant stops between Pittsburgh and Washington? If I had my way, I'd reroute the CL through the Pennsylvanian route then south to Washington, passing through Wilmington and Baltimore. It would give all of the PA cities direct access to Chicago as well as Wilmington and Baltimore a faster train to Chicago. Plus you can get from Pittsburgh to Baltimore without any transfers at all. In fact, before the CL began they use to handle Chicago-Washington through a through car branch off the Broadway Limited. (http://www.timetables.org/full.php?grou ... &item=0036" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;). It would take a little longer but you gain many more cities. Plus, you don't have to deal with CSX anymore when it comes to the CL.