All things Pennsylvanian AND Keystone West

Station Aficionado wrote:... using Keystone slots for west-of-Harrisburg trains would be operationally feasible wb (most departures out of NYP are relatively on time), but ... The further west a train's origin point, the less likely it will arrive in PHL on time to hit its NEC slot…. Any extensions beyond Harrisburg should not come at the cost of degrading Harrisburg-NYP service.

I get it. So we have to add to the operating costs of west of PGH service a stand-by train in Harrisburg. If the EB train from CHI-TOL-CLE-PHG, or just from PGH, if it runs late, fire up the stand-by train and get on the road on time. Well. Not cheap. But necessary.

We keep hearing there are no more slots, at least not useful slots, under the Hudson River. So the only way to get from NYC to Pennsylvania will be to use a Keystone slot. Or wait for the new tunnel by 2029, or was it 2039?

Of course, the cost of the stand-by Keystone train wouldn't be too much if spread across multiple frequencies. I'm figuring a total of 6 is the minimum, like 4 PGH-PHI-NYC corridor trains and 2 LD trains thru to CLE-TOL-CHI. What a stand-by Keystone train would do to NEC schedules and Hudson River slots, I can't bear to think about it.

Philly Amtrak Fan wrote:

STrRedWolf wrote:Agreed. A study of traffic patterns here could provide an alternative (my proposed PGH -> PHL -> BAL/WAS "Cougar Mountain" line or a PGH -> Harrisburg, where it can pick up the Keystone for the rest of the trip).

I would be in favor of rerouting the Capitol Limited using the Cougar Mountain routing proposed. Baltimore would then have a faster and direct train to/from Chicago (as well as Pittsburgh/Cleveland). If the CL left PGH at 5:30am it would arrive in PHL by 12:55pm (shift 42 up two hrs) and then arrive in WAS around 4pm (counting 1/2 hour in PHL and 2 1/2 hours between PHL-WAS. It's an extra 3 hrs for CHI-WAS but you gain several bigger markets. Passengers who transfer south at WAS will still be able to make connections to the Silver Meteor and Crescent unless the train is too delayed and they can always make those connections in PHL or BAL as well. Plus you wouldn't have to deal with CSX anymore (it would be NS from CHI-Harrisburg and then Amtrak owned from HAR-PHL-WAS).

None of this can occur without freeing up single level equipment since Superliners have significant operational restrictions on the Keystone Corridor and NEC from Paoli to Washington.

Woody wrote:

Station Aficionado wrote:... using Keystone slots for west-of-Harrisburg trains would be operationally feasible wb (most departures out of NYP are relatively on time), but ... The further west a train's origin point, the less likely it will arrive in PHL on time to hit its NEC slot…. Any extensions beyond Harrisburg should not come at the cost of degrading Harrisburg-NYP service.

I get it. So we have to add to the operating costs of west of PGH service a stand-by train in Harrisburg. If the EB train from CHI-TOL-CLE-PHG, or just from PGH, if it runs late, fire up the stand-by train and get on the road on time. Well. Not cheap. But necessary.

We keep hearing there are no more slots, at least not useful slots, under the Hudson River. So the only way to get from NYC to Pennsylvania will be to use a Keystone slot. Or wait for the new tunnel by 2029, or was it 2039?

Of course, the cost of the stand-by Keystone train wouldn't be too much if spread across multiple frequencies. I'm figuring a total of 6 is the minimum, like 4 PGH-PHI-NYC corridor trains and 2 LD trains thru to CLE-TOL-CHI. What a stand-by Keystone train would do to NEC schedules and Hudson River slots, I can't bear to think about it.

It depends on when you schedule them. If they are outside of rush hour, it isn't that big of a deal. If it is during rush hour, you'll need a replacement slot. However, now you;re utilizing a rush hour slot for a LD train, which will have a dramatic impact if the LD portion is late. Sometimes, you can short turn existing Keystones but eventually, you run out of bullets in the arsenal.

Year ago, the eastbound Pennsylvania was a scheduled rush hour NEC train. Reliability problems necessitated a schedule change.

Woody wrote:

Station Aficionado wrote:... using Keystone slots for west-of-Harrisburg trains would be operationally feasible wb (most departures out of NYP are relatively on time), but ... The further west a train's origin point, the less likely it will arrive in PHL on time to hit its NEC slot…. Any extensions beyond Harrisburg should not come at the cost of degrading Harrisburg-NYP service.

I get it. So we have to add to the operating costs of west of PGH service a stand-by train in Harrisburg. If the EB train from CHI-TOL-CLE-PHG, or just from PGH, if it runs late, fire up the stand-by train and get on the road on time. Well. Not cheap. But necessary.

We keep hearing there are no more slots, at least not useful slots, under the Hudson River. So the only way to get from NYC to Pennsylvania will be to use a Keystone slot. Or wait for the new tunnel by 2029, or was it 2039?

Of course, the cost of the stand-by Keystone train wouldn't be too much if spread across multiple frequencies. I'm figuring a total of 6 is the minimum, like 4 PGH-PHI-NYC corridor trains and 2 LD trains thru to CLE-TOL-CHI. What a stand-by Keystone train would do to NEC schedules and Hudson River slots, I can't bear to think about it.

One other thing to think about, thinking of slots, is that it's a heck of a waste of a slot into PSNY to run a 5-car Keystone or Pennsylvanian instead of a 12-car Northeast Regional. I know the NERs don't run 12 cars, but that's a function of not having enough Amfleets to cover NEC demand, not a permanent condition, and I'd expect consist lengths on the corridor to change drastically when the Amfleets are replaced.

The mismatch in demand between the NYP-PHL segment and demand from points west of PHL, including PGH, means that the cheapest ways to handle that is to run trains HBG-PHL and PGH-PHL, and arrange convenient transfers; given the number of NYP supercommuters on the Keystone, I suspect the market pressure to minimize travel time would force the preservation of HBG-NYP one-seat rides. PGH-NYP is not quite so time-sensitive to demand that kind of override, and the Pennsylvanian loses an almost equivalent amount of time to the locomotive change as it would to a transfer.

It's not that easy, a lot of people rode because it's a one seat ride. Currently there is no need for more regionals at peak hours and philadelphia ny demand is greater than all other city pairs which means there will always be a need for more trains between philadelphia and NY than ny and Washington. The solution is to couple two keystone trains together. The amfleet shortage is driven by amtrak poor equipment utilization

Why do you suggest Amtrak utilization of Amfleets is poor??

Here's some data that's available over the internet:
(Northbound from Philadelphia on weekdays)
1) Northeast Regional 190 Mo-Fr
2) Northeast Regional 110 Mo-Fr
Acela Express 2150 Mo-Fr
3) Northeast Regional 170 Mo-Fr
4) Keystone Service 640 Mo-Fr
5) Northeast Regional 180 Mo-Fr
Acela Express 2100 Mo-Fr
6) Keystone Service 642 Mo-Fr
7) Northeast Regional 130 Mo-Fr
Acela Express 2154 Mo-Fr
8) Keystone Service 600 Mo-Fr
9) Northeast Regional 172 Mo-Fr
Acela Express 2104 Mo-Fr
11) Keystone Service 644 Mo-Fr
12) Vermonter 56 Mo-Fr
13) Northeast Regional 86 Mo-Fr
Acela Express 2158 Mo-Fr
14) Keystone Service 646 Mo-Fr
15) Northeast Regional 184 Mo-Fr
Acela Express 2160 Mo-Fr
16) Keystone Service 648 Mo-Fr
17) Northeast Regional 174 Mo-Fr
Acela Express 2110 Mo-Fr
18) Northeast Regional 84 Mo-Fr
Acela Express 2164 Mo-Fr
19) Northeast Regional 176 Mo-Fr
20) Keystone Service 650 Mo-Fr
Acela Express 2166 Mo-Fr
21) Northeast Regional 186 Mo-Fr
Acela Express 2168 Mo-Fr
22) Pennsylvanian 42 Daily
23) Northeast Regional 94 Mo-Fr
Acela Express 2170 Mo-Fr
24) Northeast Regional 148 Mo-Fr
(Northeast Regional 134 ThFr)
Acela Express 2172 Mo-Fr
25) Keystone Service 652 Mo-Fr
26) Northeast Regional 178 Mo-Fr
Acela Express 2122 Mo-Fr
27) Keystone Service 654 Mo-Fr
28) Northeast Regional 196 Mo-Th
(Northeast Regional 136 Fr)
Acela Express 2124 Mo-Fr
29) Keystone Service 656 Mo-Fr
30) Northeast Regional 138 Mo-Fr
Acela Express 2126 Mo-Fr
(Keystone Service 658 Fr )
31) Northeast Regional 188 Mo-Fr
Acela Express 2128 Mo-Fr
32) Palmetto 90 Daily
33) Northeast Regional 66 Daily
Let's assume there's the same amount of trains heading southbound as well, just to keep this list short. Trains in () didn't run every weekday, trains underlined don't use Amfleet I rolling stock, and no long distance train was included. So that leaves 33 trains using Amfleet I rolling stock heading north, 10 of them Keystones, there are 23 others that more than likely aren't using the same rolling stock twice in one day heading north. I think there's a good chance the Keystones can be used twice in one day, at least some of them, so lets assuming they're using just 5 train sets for the Keystones. Let's also assume the non Keystones trains average 10 cars, and the Keystones average 5 cars.
Therefore, 23 x 10 = 230 cars, 5 x 5 = 25 cars, therefore 255 Amfleet I cars are used heading north every day. Keeping our math simple, that 510 Amfleet I cars being used in both directions, north and south, every weekday. If we subtract the second 25 to account for Keystones repeatedly, that's 485 Amfleet I cars running through Philadelphia every weekday.

Amtrak owns and presently runs the following list of Amfleet I cars:
Club-Dinette 44
Full Dinette 47
Regional Coaches 326
Regional Business Class 42
Making a grand total of 459 Amfleet Is. Not all of them run on the NEC, there are some placed in the Midwest and California for service, although not many. Even if we assume the worse case for utilization purposes, that all 459 are available for NEC services, the math is as follows; 485 / 459 = 1.056 . That 5% more car availability than cars????
If we reduce the average of the non Keystones trains by a car, we save 23 cars from the total of 485 cars, by 2 cars we save 46 cars from the total.
This additional math follows:
462 / 459 = 1.006 or 100.6%
439 / 459 = 0.956 or 95.6%

Obviously Amtrak utilization is really great, considering some have to be out of service for maintenance purposes daily.

What would you consider the goal for excellent utilization of rolling stock should be? I would think over 95% should be rated very good.

Electric on, no offense but you did a lot of worm for no reason whatsoever. Little of it is fact and none of it proves your point. What you want to look at is revenue hours versus available hours. Keystone sets should make at a minimum two round trips nyp-har. Keystone sets are interchangeable with each other not with regionals. Even regionals are not interchangeable because they are not standard length. As a result they sit in the yard which results in poor utilization. Long distance trains are even worse. Most transportation companies try to keep their expensive assets moving not sitting in a yard. Improving utilization is key to unlocking capacity and improving financial results

Suburban Station wrote:Electric on, no offense but you did a lot of worm for no reason whatsoever. Little of it is fact and none of it proves your point. What you want to look at is revenue hours versus available hours. Keystone sets should make at a minimum two round trips nyp-har.

Why? There are 24 available hours in a day, but that doesn't mean there is demand 24 hours a day. So, why have a train operating at times when the demand is not there? Harrisburg rolls up the sidewalk at a certain point of the day and most keystones sets make at least a trip and a half between NYP-HAR (while a few make two round trips between their originating points.) It is not a dense corridor like the NYP-WAS route.

Suburban Station wrote:Keystone sets are interchangeable with each other not with regionals. Even regionals are not interchangeable because they are not standard length.

I'm not sure where you're getting this from, but they are indeed interchangeable. The swap with each other all the time. Indeed, the current procedure for the 90-89 turn is if 90 is operating late, they take the AM1 equipment from 656's equipment to make up 89. When 90 comes in, they take the AM1 equipment and make up 643 for the next day. The only car that isn't entire flexible is the cab car and in a pinch, they will use those too.

Regional trains all have a base consist, which are completely interchangeable as well. I can't tell you how many times equipment is moved up, moved back or swapped out, especially when it comes to attempting to protect 94. recently 94 was in trouble, so they moved up 148's equipment to make an on time 94. 94 was going to assume 148's slot. 94 lost more time, so they moved up 178's equipment to cover for 148. Once 94 arrived, it held and operated as an on time 178 from WAS-BOS.

Suburban Station wrote: As a result they sit in the yard which results in poor utilization. Long distance trains are even worse. Most transportation companies try to keep their expensive assets moving not sitting in a yard. Improving utilization is key to unlocking capacity and improving financial results

As you stated, trains that sit in a yard do not make money, but trains that are operating also represent costs. The state of Pennsylvania is involved with the plan for the Keystones. They have a set pool and the utilization and schedules are based upon their request. They could have more service if they wanted it, but they declined to pay for it.

ThirdRail7 wrote: Why? There are 24 available hours in a day, but that doesn't mean there is demand 24 hours a day. So, why have a train operating at times when the demand is not there? Harrisburg rolls up the sidewalk at a certain point of the day and most keystones sets make at least a trip and a half between NYP-HAR (while a few make two round trips between their originating points.) It is not a dense corridor like the NYP-WAS route.

this is how you calculate utilization that's why. It's true, you want to operate where marginal revenue=marginal cost but that's a separate argument entirely unless you are claiming that Amtrak loses money on every trip on both the NEC and the HAR line during the day. you are making a distinction between NYP-HAR and the rest of the system that is not useful, we're talking about equipment utilization not corridor frequency.

ThirdRail7 wrote: I'm not sure where you're getting this from, but they are indeed interchangeable. The swap with each other all the time. Indeed, the current procedure for the 90-89 turn is if 90 is operating late, they take the AM1 equipment from 656's equipment to make up 89. When 90 comes in, they take the AM1 equipment and make up 643 for the next day. The only car that isn't entire flexible is the cab car and in a pinch, they will use those too.

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take a closer look at the consist information, what I said is in fact how it operates...especially during the day when it is most important. 180, for example, arrives at 8:44 AM and turns for 127 at 4:05 PM. that's great that the late palmetto will rob the keystone to protect 89 but that's not an example of why Amtrak has poor equipment utilization (to protect late trains) rather than an argument that it does not. do planes set for 7 hours at the airport during the day?

ThirdRail7 wrote: As you stated, trains that sit in a yard do not make money, but trains that are operating also represent costs. The state of Pennsylvania is involved with the plan for the Keystones. They have a set pool and the utilization and schedules are based upon their request. They could have more service if they wanted it, but they declined to pay for it.

equipment that is available for train operation also has costs regardless of whether it operates or not. the majority of the equipment expense has been incurred by the time the equipment is available for service.
your comments on the keystone are not relevant to issues of utilization and are also not correct. the state has asked for estimates for more service but Amtrak so far has been incapable of providing them.

Suburban Station wrote:Take a closer look at the consist information, what I said is in fact how it operates...especially during the day when it is most important. 180, for example, arrives at 8:44 AM and turns for 127 at 4:05 PM. that's great that the late palmetto will rob the keystone to protect 89 but that's not an example of why Amtrak has poor equipment utilization (to protect late trains) rather than an argument that it does not. do planes set for 7 hours at the airport during the day?

Yes, planes do sit at airports during the day for 7 hours, especially on very long distance, non daily flights. Take Sydney to Dallas flights as just one example.

Your train sits in NY for around 7 hours, what happens during those 7 hours? Couldn't Amtrak be taking the time to restock, clean, perform minor maintenance on that train? Or does it just sit there with nothing at all being done to it? I have never seen an entire cleaning crew clean a train while it is moving and in service.

most domestic planes do not but I'm sure you know this. 45 minutes later it's in the air. overnight trains do sit for longer periods though there are issues there as well but that's not relevant to this discussion since much of that equipment is not interchangeable with short distance corridor trains but there is a real cost to equipment that sits when it could otherwise be gainfully employed. do you honestly think it takes 7 hours to clean a train? how, then, can it be accomplished in just 35 minutes in Chicago on a Hiawatha train?

Since mid-2006, dozens of teams comprising two to four employees have been analyzing work processes and operating systems, and recommending changes to save time — from several minutes to several hours. Their efforts are helping to improve fluidity. Now, intermodal equipment moves through a terminal quickly, coal trains load and depart faster, and employees receive work orders in a fraction of the time. ...And a little means a lot if Velocity helps maximize and expand capacity, increase equipment availability, shorten cycle times and boost on-time performance

http://www.progressiverailroading.com/b ... ure--32049" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Suburban Station wrote:

ThirdRail7 wrote: Why? There are 24 available hours in a day, but that doesn't mean there is demand 24 hours a day. So, why have a train operating at times when the demand is not there? Harrisburg rolls up the sidewalk at a certain point of the day and most keystones sets make at least a trip and a half between NYP-HAR (while a few make two round trips between their originating points.) It is not a dense corridor like the NYP-WAS route.

this is how you calculate utilization that's why. It's true, you want to operate where marginal revenue=marginal cost but that's a separate argument entirely unless you are claiming that Amtrak loses money on every trip on both the NEC and the HAR line during the day. you are making a distinction between NYP-HAR and the rest of the system that is not useful, we're talking about equipment utilization not corridor frequency.

You're the one who brought corridor frequency into the conversation by saying every Keystone set should make a minimum of two round trips between NYP-HAR. Currently, that would result in a corridor frequency increase which leads to additional costs. Is it worth the costs of running everything associated with moving the additional trains? I suspect Pennsylvania doesn't think so.

Suburban Station wrote:

ThirdRail7 wrote: I'm not sure where you're getting this from, but they are indeed interchangeable. The swap with each other all the time. Indeed, the current procedure for the 90-89 turn is if 90 is operating late, they take the AM1 equipment from 656's equipment to make up 89. When 90 comes in, they take the AM1 equipment and make up 643 for the next day. The only car that isn't entire flexible is the cab car and in a pinch, they will use those too.

\
take a closer look at the consist information, what I said is in fact how it operates...especially during the day when it is most important. 180, for example, arrives at 8:44 AM and turns for 127 at 4:05 PM. that's great that the late palmetto will rob the keystone to protect 89 but that's not an example of why Amtrak has poor equipment utilization (to protect late trains) rather than an argument that it does not. do planes set for 7 hours at the airport during the day?

First of all, 180 doesn't turn for 127 unless there is an equipment problem or disruption, so it is you that needs take a closer look at the consist information. It hasn't in quite some time. Secondly, there are reasons that trains are manipulated because optimization of equipment also requires optimization of facilities. Once the train turns, where does it go on its next trip? What type of facilitie does that place have? Where will the calendar day inspection be performed?

Equally important is some trains are deliberatly held in certain locations to facilitate inspections for their future runs. You can't perform every single inspection on every train in the middle of the night. That is why some of them are done in the middle of the day.. Why do you need extra trains running out of NYP during the middle of the day when the trains that started their day off corridor and east of NYP are now on the corridor at the times these trains are sitting around? It's the perfect time to perform the necessary inspections so you have equipment to manipulate and when they end up in facilities without full services, they can "turn and burn." Furthermore, your rush hour trains are protected from most of the off-corridor hijinx.

Suburban Station wrote: that's great that the late palmetto will rob the keystone to protect 89 but that's not an example of why Amtrak has poor equipment utilization (to protect late trains) rather than an argument that it does not. do planes set for 7 hours at the airport during the day?

This was an example of equipment being interchangeable, which you previously stated it wasn't. It was not a pro or con point for optimization. An AM-1 is an AM-1. We've sent keystones (minus a cab car) to Albany (minus a split club.) Albany trains have been sent out as a Keystone to Philadelphia (minus the split club) with four cars to pick up a cab car to go to Harrisburg.

So, they are interchangeable. It happens day in and day out. You just don't see it.

Suburban Station wrote:[

ThirdRail7 wrote: As you stated, trains that sit in a yard do not make money, but trains that are operating also represent costs. The state of Pennsylvania is involved with the plan for the Keystones. They have a set pool and the utilization and schedules are based upon their request. They could have more service if they wanted it, but they declined to pay for it.

equipment that is available for train operation also has costs regardless of whether it operates or not. the majority of the equipment expense has been incurred by the time the equipment is available for service.

That's the key word...expense. Who eats it? Amtrak? The state sponsor? I'd bet real money that Amtrak bills the state for everything that is associated with the preparation and movement of the equipment. I'd also bet there are mileage and wear and tear provisions. Add the costs for the crews and I'm not sure I'd say the majority of expense has been incurred. So, if Amtrak is billing the state for every move associated with the service, it would be up to them to decide if they think it is worth it.

Suburban Station wrote:[your comments on the keystone are not relevant to issues of utilization and are also not correct. the state has asked for estimates for more service but Amtrak so far has been incapable of providing them

Actually, the state has received plenty of cost estimates which is how they arrived at the current service plan. Additionally, I wouldn't normally bring this up, but they are on their second proposal for the second Pennsylvanian. If you have access, you should be able to see the three previous Keystone plans or request them, since they exist.

As for Keystones being irrelevent to utilization, you are correct since this is a thread about the Pennsylvanian...not fleet management or Keystones. I was merely responding to your comments regarding why it may not make sense to have every set of Keystone equipment in the Pennsylvanian pool make two round trips.

You are, as always entitled to your opinion.

TV station WTAJ in Central Pennsylvania did a very friendly report (and with no errors that I noticed!) on efforts by Huntingdon to get more frequencies on the Philly-Pittsburgh route that runs thru the little town.

http://www.wearecentralpa.com/news/hunt ... for-amtrak" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

In under two weeks, Pittsburgh will not only have the Fourth of July... but also a laaarge convention. Last year, it was it's 10th anniversary being in Pittsburgh. This year, the convention celebrates 20 years overall.

Yes, I'm talking Anthrocon. And when I mean large, I mean 7000 people filling eight hotels and most of the convention center.

If you're wondering why the June 29th/30th and July 4th/5th days are sold out, this is why.

Don't know if it's possible or not, but would seem a great time to add a coach or two to the consist.

Bringing it back to trains, I know off hand (because I know of another Amtrak fur who was employed by the Cape May Short Line) that you cannot be in costume ("fursuit") and operating the engine due to FRA regulations concerning limiting one's vision. It would be nice to fursuit the exit at Pittsburgh, but I think we'd have to arrange it with Amtrak.