Worst transit line?

Everyone here seems to defend the T, and especially the green line.

I would love to hear if anyone can cite, and provide evidence of a transit line in the US that is worse than the Green line.

I cite the green line as the worst because:
1. slow average speed
2. poorly maintained rolling stock
3. stop and starts in tunnels
4. no central automated signal system
5. door policy for paying going inbound (why only have Show and Go at some stops? You either allow the back door to open, or you don't.)
6. Surly drivers - I've seen them be downright rude all the time
7. slow average speed


Anyone like the green line? What's wrong with you?


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Participant, MBTA Forum

I don't defend the T. They really need to fix things on the system. It seems to be getting worse instead of better, at least if you ride the Green B Line. Today a Breda Type 8 POS broke down on the line during the morning rush hours (will someone tell me why the Type 8's have to be on the B line - why can't they go back to the C and retire the Boeings?). This has been regularly happening for months now. And of course, no one is ever told about what happens, because there is no PA system at any of the Green Line surface stops. I also found out at work that the Red and Orange Lines had problems at Downtown Crossing. The T is going to drive commuters into their cars and into the horrible traffic of the Pike, the Tobin Bridge and 93. That's exactly what we don't need to happen. But if the T doesn't make real improvements to its existing services, that's what's going to happen.

Same thing from me also, I'd have to say the Green Line, even though I don't use it thankfully

I only use the Red Line and it's been running just fine and a 98% on time performance.

Silver line anyone?

Well, in Boston, the Green Line is certainly the toughest ride. I can't think of anyone I know that uses it to commute who has anything good to say about it. As a railfan, I love it -- when I lived in Newton I used to love riding the Riverside line, but I never commuted daily on it, so I didn't really get the full enjoyment value.

And Rob, as for the Red Line, well, many more mornings like yesterday and there won't be any happy commuters around my office here in Kendall. Yesterday I spent 45 minutes trying to get on a train at Harvard (partly staying to see just how bad it would get) and finally gave up and took a bus. The only four trains that showed up were so packed almost no one could get on at Harvard. Its sad, but just about every other day I hear people around the office going, "Forget it, just give me a parking permit. I'm done with the T."

To bring this back to the Green Line, check out the comments in the SEPTA forum about Philadelphia's Subway Surface lines. They're really one of the only two systems in the US that compare to our Green Line (the other being MUNI in San Francisco). Just this week, people have been posting about the overcrowded conditions, etc., down there. Sound familiar?

All three of these systems are trying to maintain ancient streetcar systems on shoestring budgets, all while carrying huge loads (certainly mosreso in Boston than Philly, I don't know what ridership is like in SF). Boston is increasingly looking like a hybrid of say NYC and Philly -- high rapid transit ridership like NYC, but little or no money to invest in the system like Philly. To me, the Green Line is something of the canary in the coal mine (subway tunnel?) for the T -- the only true way to solve the Green Line's problems once and for all will require massive changes -- additional tunnel capacity, perhaps more tunnels/grade seperation west of Kenmore, more cars, a new fare system, and probably a new signal system. After a while, where do you start?

And, while the Blue Line is getting some relief in upcoming years, how long before either the Red or Orange Lines need a massive program. Right now, as a daily rider on the Cambridge end, there doesn't appear to be a whole lot of room for ridership growth on the Red Line. Who wants to take a look at the bill for an eight-car station expansion project?

Okay, end rant.

I only defend the T when the critic is being to critical!

jumbotusk wrote: I cite the green line as the worst because:
1. slow average speed
2. poorly maintained rolling stock
3. stop and starts in tunnels
4. no central automated signal system
5. door policy for paying going inbound (why only have Show and Go at some stops? You either allow the back door to open, or you don't.)
6. Surly drivers - I've seen them be downright rude all the time
7. slow average speed

1. Not really, they get goin pretty well, especially out of the downtown area.

2. How So?

3. Theres just that much traffic

4. So? The general public doesnt know or care, besides, what difference does it make?

5. Agree with you there, thats a pretty lousy setup.

6. Thats on all lines, you just dont see them on the other lines as much.

7. You already said that and its not true, you just put a 7 there to be extra critical, which is what makes me defend.

Im for fairness, there are a lot of things wrong with the system, but they only have so much money. I think management needs a smack sometimes but im not them, so I really have no room to judge.

Ridership on San Francisco's 5 muni-metro streetcar lines was 145,000 a day during 2000-2001. Another 19,000 people rode the "F" historic streetcar line during the same period.

I completely agree, the Green Line is atrocious. Here're two examples from within the last 5 days.

My commute home on the B-Line from Government Center to Boston College took well over an hour. Although I waited for about 10 minutes for a B-Line trolley, by the time we got to BU West, we caught up with a Type 8 Trainset and crawled along behind it for the rest of the trip.

After an incident such as this, I avoid the B-Line for as long as possible. So last night I decided to take the D-Line. During the height of the evening commute, the wait for a D-Line trolley at Government Center was about 15 minutes. By the time a trolley did come, the station was packed with people waiting to get on, of which only about half did. Now again, this is during rush hour when the T claims that D-Line trolleys are spaced at 5 minute intervals.

I'm quickly starting to believe that the only solution to the Green Line is to stop riding it.

octr202 wrote:Yesterday I spent 45 minutes trying to get on a train at Harvard (partly staying to see just how bad it would get) and finally gave up and took a bus. The only four trains that showed up were so packed almost no one could get on at Harvard.

Yesterday morning was hardly representative; they had a disabled train that completely hosed the entire line. I went into Davis to find it completely packed around 8:30, and shortly afterwards an empty train came through outbound at 10mph without stopping-- and turned out to be two trains coupled together; presumably that was the disabled one being pushed out by the one behind it.

Inbound trains were hopeless; less than 10% of the people on the platform were able to get on. I got on the next outbound, rode it to Alewife and stayed on for the return trip-- as did just about everyone else on it, and it was far from empty. I think some people pulled that trick from Harvard.

It's the Breda's. I've noticed it too. Nothing comes into Park St. for 5-7 minutes at rush hour. Then, a Breda comes in and turns at Park, and a steady flow of one, one, one, one, in rapid succession, heads for Gov't Ctr and North Station. If i ran the T, not a single one of those damn things would be running. They would all be returned to Breda, and i'd be getting all the money back too.

It's a real shame that we paid all that money for our system to be even worse than it was before.

It's defintely the Bredas. I don't know why the T had to put them back on the B line (they seemed to be doing better on the C line, why couldn't the T have just left them there?) Those lemons screwed up my morning commute yesterday, when one of them broke down. Now that the weather is a little nicer, I'm probably going walk to Beacon St to take the C.

I agree, send those ugly Breda lemons back. Hopefully a court will side with the T and let them cancel the rest of the 100-car order. Then Breda should be forced to give the T restitution payments for all the trouble they had go through with these cars for the last six years (I'm surprised the T didn't give up on them sooner). Even the MTA in NYC didn't have this much trouble with its problem-plagued Bombardier R142 subway cars. The R142s finally started to work properly in late 2002.

octr202 wrote:"Forget it, just give me a parking permit. I'm done with the T."

Well that's the problem. If people just give up and become resigned to driving and don't communicate their desire for better transit to their elected officials, then they will never get better transit. There's plenty of money for all kinds of improvements to the T, that money needs to be allocated though, at the local, state, and federal levels. We have money for the Sagamore Flyover, adding a lane to route 3, adding a lane to the southern section of 128, to continue to pay off the Big Dig... There's money out there, lots of it, our elected officials need to be made to prioritize those funds.

There are problems at the T as well. The biggest problem is that the brass at the T is not speaking out about maintaining and expanding the central system, they're too busy trying to sell us on BRT and spinning their wheels on Greenbush. And that is because they became the brass by supporting the policies on Beacon Hill. Get someone on Beacon Hill who wants to fix the T and we'll see the brass come in line with that.

ceo wrote:

octr202 wrote:Yesterday I spent 45 minutes trying to get on a train at Harvard (partly staying to see just how bad it would get) and finally gave up and took a bus. The only four trains that showed up were so packed almost no one could get on at Harvard.

Yesterday morning was hardly representative; they had a disabled train that completely hosed the entire line. I went into Davis to find it completely packed around 8:30, and shortly afterwards an empty train came through outbound at 10mph without stopping-- and turned out to be two trains coupled together; presumably that was the disabled one being pushed out by the one behind it.

Inbound trains were hopeless; less than 10% of the people on the platform were able to get on. I got on the next outbound, rode it to Alewife and stayed on for the return trip-- as did just about everyone else on it, and it was far from empty. I think some people pulled that trick from Harvard.

Yes, I was aware of that on Monday. they actually were pretty good about announcing it. However, I used it as an illustration of what's becoming an all-to-common occurance on even the Red Line. Also, we could probably have a whole discussion on why there are never any short-turns made at Harvard or any other points in a situation like that. When there isn't going to be a train for 12-15 minutes, its hard to support the notion that they can't turn an outbound at Harvard -- it can't take 15 minutes to change ends on a subway train.

I actually (for work reasons) drove a lot of days in January, so was not on the Red Line daily. This is the fourth time in the last four weeks where the wait at Harvard to get on a train was longer than the ride to Kendall (and sometimes even the walk to Kendall!). Its an alarming trend, especially when you consider that the Red Line has 35-36 year old cars that have to last another 5-10 years before they're scheduled to be replaced!

Cotuit wrote:

octr202 wrote:"Forget it, just give me a parking permit. I'm done with the T."

Well that's the problem. If people just give up and become resigned to driving and don't communicate their desire for better transit to their elected officials, then they will never get better transit. There's plenty of money for all kinds of improvements to the T, that money needs to be allocated though, at the local, state, and federal levels. We have money for the Sagamore Flyover, adding a lane to route 3, adding a lane to the southern section of 128, to continue to pay off the Big Dig... There's money out there, lots of it, our elected officials need to be made to prioritize those funds.

There are problems at the T as well. The biggest problem is that the brass at the T is not speaking out about maintaining and expanding the central system, they're too busy trying to sell us on BRT and spinning their wheels on Greenbush. And that is because they became the brass by supporting the policies on Beacon Hill. Get someone on Beacon Hill who wants to fix the T and we'll see the brass come in line with that.

Amen. How many times in the last month I've been cursing under my breath during the commute that we are spending money speeding up people's vacation drives, but just getting a five mile commute on the T in under an hour is often a challenge. For me, if it weren't for a free T pass from work and an over $500 charge for a parking space each year, I think I'd be driving at this point...

ST214 wrote:It's the Breda's. I've noticed it too. Nothing comes into Park St. for 5-7 minutes at rush hour. Then, a Breda comes in and turns at Park, and a steady flow of one, one, one, one, in rapid succession, heads for Gov't Ctr and North Station. If i ran the T, not a single one of those damn things would be running. They would all be returned to Breda, and i'd be getting all the money back too.

It's a real shame that we paid all that money for our system to be even worse than it was before.

Can someone explain to me what exactly the speed restrictions are on the Bredas? I've assumed that they only applied to surface routes, mainly because I've seen some Bredas cruising at close to full speeds in the Central Subway.