Toys or Us has no model train section anymore

Maybe with the World Wide Net and the resulting world wide marketplace, our model railroad hobby will continue as its consumer base expands. International manufacturing of model railroad equipment is now the norm, and has been for several decades. In the N-scale end of the hobby, where I have been for over thirty years, I have seen Chinese-made products change from pretty poor to pretty nice. Some of the best stuff has always come from Germany. Japan has been known for decades for its high-end model products.

And these examples are all for US and Canadian prototype items. Maybe, as places like China and India develop populations with more disposable income, they will become markets for this stuff, to.

I have already seen this happen in the model ship hobby. A strong international market supports a strong international manufacturing community. Fortunately for us, American prototype modelling is found worldwide.

What concerns me more is the shift in model railroading from a craftsman's hobby to dependence on off-the-shelf items. This will not be good if the US economy collapses. Model railroading will not be the affordable, skill-promoting hobby it once was.

A lot has been said about the possible demise of model railroading in a world where the younger generation is not exposed to railroads as a part of their daily lives. This may be a baseless fear. The modelling of large ships from the first half of the 20th Century is a healthy world-wide hobby, and how many people had contact with those on a personal basis?

I have been a model railroad hobbyist since 1968, but I can honestly say I have never heard the possibility of a conspiracy existing in this hobby until reading the postings today. CNJ has some legitimate concerns about the future of the hobby, and we don't all have to agree. My own fears of a collapsing hobby are less now than when it appeared concentrated in just a handful of countries.

Les

Once any pursuit totally vanishes from the public eye, just how long can one really expect it to persist in any other form?

CNJ999[/quote]

One way is by parents and grandparents giving their old trains to their children and grandchildren. Thats how I got started, and thats what Im going to do with my kids (when Im old enough to marry and even consider having them, lol!). Desertdweller is right too, while the American base may be shrinking, the international market can easily grow in the future. I don't believe that this hobby that in our, or any other country, will ever die out to the point where it isn't possible to practice it anymore. As has been said, just because Toys r Us doesn't carry them, it isn't the end of the world (er, hobby).
C.J.V.

I don't know, i'm watching the hobby shops around me get shot down in flames as well. they don't make much money.

I don't think the internet will be the end of model railroads. Just like people continued to photograph trains when they went from steam to diesel, people will continue to buy trains electronically rather than physically.

I am however concerned that prices will kill the hobby. Its getting harder and harder to afford any sort of model. Walthers passenger cars that were $35 jumped to $49, and now $59 and up. I mean, the whole reason i even stuck with HO scale was because i couldn't afford those kinds of prices for JUST A SINGLE car. Some of these brass passenger cars are selling for cheaper! I'm also another younger modeler (21, so maybe i'm crossing into the "older" territory), and i don't make THAT much to afford some of these things.

When i started modeling, i could atleast get a pile of flex track for a reasonable price, and an Athearn Blue Box kit would work for me and i could make it look good. Now the only kind of kits i can find are MIND BENDING resin commuter kits, which incidentally are more expensive than many RTR diesels.

I'm not worried about the hobby disappearing because of lack of interest, I'm worried about it disappearing because no one can pay for it.

From at least a half dozen shops specializing in model trains in the sixties in Boston, we lost our last model train store, the Flying Yankee Hobbies on Centre st. West Roxbury, a few years ago. Sadly, none in the city now.

The mail order houses were supposed to spell the end of hobby shops as we knew them back in the 1980s...

Let's face it, there are very few hobby shops that specialize in trains that are also well-run businesses. Most train shops are run by well-meaning fellows who don't have a clue on how to operate a business. It's easy to run a train shop when times are good, but how do you weather the storm? Some folks can't handle it. Then there are the wonderful shops that have been run by the same fellow for years with no successor in place. These are the shops that close down when the owner decides to retire (or otherwise).

Are there fewer train shops than a generation ago? Perhaps. Are there fewer places to buy trains? No.

-otto-

green_elite_cab wrote:I am however concerned that prices will kill the hobby. Its getting harder and harder to afford any sort of model. Walthers passenger cars that were $35 jumped to $49, and now $59 and up. I mean, the whole reason i even stuck with HO scale was because i couldn't afford those kinds of prices for JUST A SINGLE car. Some of these brass passenger cars are selling for cheaper! I'm also another younger modeler (21, so maybe i'm crossing into the "older" territory), and i don't make THAT much to afford some of these things.

When you are a little older and start your career and start putting real money away, those $50 passenger cars won't seem so expensive. The truth is, that is the price you pay for today's detailed, accurate, almost-ready-to-run models (plus accounting for inflation). The whole "hobby is too expensive" thing is a matter of perspective. When I was 12 (22 years ago), I thought $25.00 was a lot of money for an Athearn blue-box locomotive. Of course, that was working with my $5-a-week allowance!

When i started modeling, i could atleast get a pile of flex track for a reasonable price, and an Athearn Blue Box kit would work for me and i could make it look good.

Ah yes, the long lens of time does distort memories when you look backwards through it. Yes, you may have bought a "pile of flex track" for less money when you were a kid, but were you buying a better product? Yes, you can spend as little as possible and buy the cheapest products possible, but remember that in this hobby YOU GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR.

Now the only kind of kits i can find are MIND BENDING resin commuter kits, which incidentally are more expensive than many RTR diesels.

Unfair statement. You have chosen a niche modeling segment (commuter and rapid transit) for which there are very few mass-produced models available, therefore, your only option is limited edition resin craftsman kits.

I'm not worried about the hobby disappearing because of lack of interest, I'm worried about it disappearing because no one can pay for it.

"The "Cost" of the hobby is really a matter of perspective. For entry level model railroaders that are most likely to have less to spend on their hobby, Atlas Trainman and Walthers Trainline products are not bad values for the money you pay. I assume as you grow with the hobby and gain more experience, you make decisions on what equipment you need and how you'll pay for it. As you grow older and you become gainfully employed, you'll start to realize that compared to the other things you'll be paying for (rent, insurance, utilities, groceries, gas, car repairs) that paying about $129.00 (list) for a new HO scale RS-11 from Atlas isn't that bad.

-otto-

Otto Vondrak wrote:When you are a little older and start your career and start putting real money away, those $50 passenger cars won't seem so expensive. The truth is, that is the price you pay for today's detailed, accurate, almost-ready-to-run models (plus accounting for inflation). The whole "hobby is too expensive" thing is a matter of perspective. When I was 12 (22 years ago), I thought $25.00 was a lot of money for an Athearn blue-box locomotive. Of course, that was working with my $5-a-week allowance!

LOL, I remember that I would just sporadically offer lawn service whenever i needed a few bucks! I didn't get much more than that though, lol.

Ah yes, the long lens of time does distort memories when you look backwards through it. Yes, you may have bought a "pile of flex track" for less money when you were a kid, but were you buying a better product? Yes, you can spend as little as possible and buy the cheapest products possible, but remember that in this hobby YOU GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR.

Trust me, NO ONE believes in "you get what you pay for" more than me. But i still have the price tags on some of this stuff, and the little stickers don't lie. the Atlas Flextrack i was using went up in price. I doubt quality has changed much. If you can tell me where the quality change in those Walthers passenger cars came in, i'd love to hear it. When i see the price jump $20, i have to wonder exactly what I'm paying for. I still have impossible bags of grab irons, and cars don't look that different from each other.

Unfair statement. You have chosen a niche modeling segment (commuter and rapid transit) for which there are very few mass-produced models available, therefore, your only option is limited edition resin craftsman kits.

Yeah, but how many simple kits are out there. True, i could probably find an Athearn kit right now if i wanted to. In fact, i know a place that has a crap ton of them left over. However, they can hardly be said to be widespread anymore, apart from perhaps the internet (where anything can be found).

The mind bending part is true of just about any resin kit i've ever built, and this includes models beyond commuter trains.

"The "Cost" of the hobby is really a matter of perspective. For entry level model railroaders that are most likely to have less to spend on their hobby, Atlas Trainman and Walthers Trainline products are not bad values for the money you pay. I assume as you grow with the hobby and gain more experience, you make decisions on what equipment you need and how you'll pay for it. As you grow older and you become gainfully employed, you'll start to realize that compared to the other things you'll be paying for (rent, insurance, utilities, groceries, gas, car repairs) that paying about $129.00 (list) for a new HO scale RS-11 from Atlas isn't that bad.

-otto-

Normally, I'd be inclined to agree with you. I have certainly felt the difference from when i started (and had no money) to now, where i can bring in a reasonable amount of spending money. Still, Times are tough right now, and even from "established" modelers and people who have these jobs that I talk to, they seem to have trouble justifying these expensive units. I don't consider $130 an extreme price either, but alot of stuff is starting at $150, and might still need a decoder in it if you're running on DCC. Things add up very quickly, and i'm watching certain things that were within my reach just pull farther away.

The higher prices might be legitimate, but i can't go out and buy a new passenger car every few weeks anymore. i don't go to the hobby shops nearly as much as i used to, and when i do go, the people behind the counter say the same thing, the prices are chasing people out.

Obviously there's still SOME disposable income out there: http://www.ebay.com/itm/360390732308?ss ... 1438.l2649

glennk419 wrote:Obviously there's still SOME disposable income out there: http://www.ebay.com/itm/360390732308?ss ... 1438.l2649

Such bizarre situations, of course, represent only the extreme "collecting fanatic" outer fringe of the hobby, folks who are NEVER actually model railroaders, but rather some strange form of dabbler-hoader. Another example like this reflecting what I view as exhibiting somewhat mentally instability in some folks was one I saw on eBay about two years ago. There an EMPTY Lionel train set cardboad shipping box about 24 inches square sold for upwards of $2,500! There was hardly even a marking on the box to indicate that it ever even contained a Lionel product!

Don't tell me that there aren't people in this hobby that aren't in need of professional help!

CNJ999

This thread is really hitting close to home, because I've lived it.
I got started in model railroading (not counting my Lionel stuff I had as a kid) in 1968. I bought a model train set in HO that my mother's friend had bought for her kid. He lost interest in it. By building railroads as small as 4x6', I was able to keep model railroading through college. Stuff was cheaper back then, but maybe not so when adjusted for inflation. I remember buying an Athern SW-1200 for $12. Freight cars were $3-4, passenger cars $5-6. Atlas Flex Track was cheap, but it was also brass.

Ten years later, with a new family and a mobile home, something had to give. I had a buddy who wanted to convert from N-scale to HO. By then, I had quite a bit of stuff. We worked out the trade by assigning a dollar value based on current values for all of the stuff as if it were new, and swapping straight up, dollar for dollar. We both came out happy with the deal.

The rolling stock has held up well over the years (Rivarossi and Atlas). The locos did not have a lot of miles left on them and wore out. They were not as robust as those made later. The power I bought new in the 70's and 80's is still going strong.

As time passed, I became more focused in terms of roads and time frame. A parallel career in 1:1 railroading helped my hobby spending considerably.

A major change up came in the 1990's. I had by then several hundred individual cars and loco units. I changed everything over to MicroTrains couplers. It was about a $400 hit, but worth it. You have to realize, back then, almost everything came with Rapido couplers, not the MT-compatible knuckle couplers standard today.

Looking over the locos available today, I would say that as far as lower/moderate priced Diesels go, the N-scale offerings have improved more than the HO. DCC was unknown back then, and, despite what the magazines would have you believe, is far from universally-embraced today. A power-block wired layout allows the use of any loco right out of the box. I used to have to change the couplers, but don't even have to do that anymore.

I think when you consider inflation, the current prices are not so bad. What does concern me is the shift from a "home craftsman" type hobby to a "ready to use" type hobby. If this country is to fall on hard times again, I have my doubts if model railroading will survive it. Manufacturers would do well to concentrate on lower-priced items that require more work on the part of the buyer. Maybe products that currently being sold as ready-to-run, and assembled by cheap labor overseas, could instead be marketed as components that have to be assembled and finished at home.

In the 1960's and 70's, brass locos were actually being sold at prices that allowed buyers to kitbash them into different prototypes. "Model Railroad Craftsman" magazine had a staff writer named Bill Shopp who wrote monthly articles on how to take brass locos apart and model unavailable prototypes from the pieces. Once, a would-be brass kitbasher wrote to complain that he didn't know how to solder. Bill suggested he take up stamp collecting as a hobby.

Good deals are still out there. I buy regularly from Walthers sale flyers. Last Saturday, I took my son and grandsons to the Railfest in North Platte, NE. This is sponsored by the city of North Platte and the UP (North Platte is a company town if there ever was one). A model train show was part of the festivities. I got a three-pack of Micro-Trains 12-1 Pullmans for $42. That works out to roughly three for the price of two.

The next time you sweat over the cost of model railroading compared to what it used to cost, just consider the price of things in general in 1973. In my opening paragraph, I noted prices for model railroad supplies back then. But: minimum Federal Wage was $2.12/hr. My wife bought a new car (Chevy Nova coupe, 305 V8) for $3,000 in Dec. 1972. Gas soared to the then-unheard of price of $0.50/gallon. Beefsteak sold for $1/lb. You could rent an apartment in most towns for $150/month. A top-of-the-line bicycle (Schwinn Supersport) was $200.

Les

green_elite_cab wrote:Trust me, NO ONE believes in "you get what you pay for" more than me. But i still have the price tags on some of this stuff, and the little stickers don't lie. the Atlas Flextrack i was using went up in price. I doubt quality has changed much.

Atlas and other manufacturers must continually raise their prices to meet their costs. Their cost of doing business continues to increase (this includes paying wages to folks who expect cost-of-living increases), therefore at some point, they must raise their price. You're right, the quality has not changed much, but as a tribute to their manufacturing they continue to maintain a high level of quality without any degredation.

If you can tell me where the quality change in those Walthers passenger cars came in, i'd love to hear it. When i see the price jump $20, i have to wonder exactly what I'm paying for. I still have impossible bags of grab irons, and cars don't look that different from each other.

Then you're obviously not the target market for the new line of Walthers passenger cars. You, as a consumer, have decided that paying ~$50 for one of their almost-ready-to-run models, with accurate tooling and detailing, free-rolling trucks, and accurate paint schemes is not worth your money. If you really can't see the difference, I suggest you hold up a comparable product from 10 or 20 years ago... (though you might have a hard time since I don't think there were any, except maybe some select brass models). Companies like Branchline Trains and Rapido really have raised the bar for passenger car models, and Walthers has followed suit with their own comparable line. Perhaps you'd rather go back to the $9.00 Athearn blue box streamliner (Which would probably retail for $18 now anyway, and is rather crude by today's standards)?

Yeah, but how many simple kits [for commuter/transit modeling] are out there.

None. The niche you have chosen is not popular enough to warrant the manufacture of mass-produced models. Therefore, you pay a higher price per kit because of the low demand.

True, i could probably find an Athearn kit right now if i wanted to. In fact, i know a place that has a crap ton of them left over. However, they can hardly be said to be widespread anymore, apart from perhaps the internet (where anything can be found).

The market for Athearn blue box has passed, which is why they stopped making them. You still find them on hobby shop shelves because no one wants them. There are so many other products out there that have replaced them. We lament Athearn, but has anyone noticed Accurail's extensive line of kits that are of similar nature to Athearn's blue box, and slightly better quality paint and detailing? The trucks and couplers leave a little to be desired, but the basic kit is quite good.

Normally, I'd be inclined to agree with you [about prices]. I have certainly felt the difference from when i started (and had no money) to now, where i can bring in a reasonable amount of spending money. Still, Times are tough right now, and even from "established" modelers and people who have these jobs that I talk to, they seem to have trouble justifying these expensive units. I don't consider $130 an extreme price either, but alot of stuff is starting at $150, and might still need a decoder in it if you're running on DCC. Things add up very quickly, and i'm watching certain things that were within my reach just pull farther away.

People will always remember when stuff was cheaper when they were a kid. Of course everything costs more now. And there's no reason for you to shell out $150 on stuff you dont want or need. Careful planning of your hobby purchases will prevent buyer's remorse!

The higher prices might be legitimate, but i can't go out and buy a new passenger car every few weeks anymore. i don't go to the hobby shops nearly as much as i used to, and when i do go, the people behind the counter say the same thing, the prices are chasing people out.

Holy crap... You buy a new passenger car every week? I don't even buy groceries every week... And you know what? I can't afford to buy the cars I want to make up the 20th Century Limited. I might pick up the Hickory Creek some day, but that's about it. Even if I could buy the whole train, where would I put it?

Did we mention this is a lifelong hobby? You don't need to buy everything right now. You buy it when you can afford it. This is a hobby, not a job. Can't afford what you want? Maybe you find less expensive ways to get what you want. Everyone is distracted by the shiny and new. I had many "stand-in" models on my last layout... an MDC "old time" wooden caboose to stand-in for an NYC woody... F9's painted in Conrail/MTA colors to stand-in for FL9's... Cheap Life-Like wooden reefers to stand-in for more detailed models...

Bottom line: Prices are NOT chasing people out of this hobby, because if they were, the manufacturers would have gone out of business because no one is buying their product.

-otto-

Oh boys.......... let's not turn this into the NJT forum.

Come on now Otto, you're not even reading my posts anymore.

Otto Vondrak wrote: Then you're obviously not the target market for the new line of Walthers passenger cars. You, as a consumer, have decided that paying ~$50 for one of their almost-ready-to-run models, with accurate tooling and detailing, free-rolling trucks, and accurate paint schemes is not worth your money. If you really can't see the difference, I suggest you hold up a comparable product from 10 or 20 years ago... (though you might have a hard time since I don't think there were any, except maybe some select brass models). Companies like Branchline Trains and Rapido really have raised the bar for passenger car models, and Walthers has followed suit with their own comparable line. Perhaps you'd rather go back to the $9.00 Athearn blue box streamliner (Which would probably retail for $18 now anyway, and is rather crude by today's standards)?

The point is, i have IDENTICAL walthers coaches from just a few years ago that costed nearly $20 less than what they are asking for today. The only differences i can find are slight modifications to the coupler boxes, if that. I'd hardly call that a "New Line". i'm not talking metal plated madness, i'm just talking your average Walthers Pullman coach or baggage car.

Yeah, but how many simple kits [for commuter/transit modeling] are out there.

None. The niche you have chosen is not popular enough to warrant the manufacture of mass-produced models. Therefore, you pay a higher price per kit because of the low demand.

I particularly liked the part where you inserted the words in my mouth. I'm not referring to just commuter or transit kits. In fact, i do a whole lot more modeling of Conrail than anything else.

We've already discussed the commuter end of things on other threads.

The point i was trying to make was that everything is High-priced RTR these days. Many times, the only kits i see in hobby shops are weird niche resin models, like the Commuter kits.

There is nothing wrong with RTR models, but sometimes, i like my models slightly less "built". I enjoy detailing my locomotives, and I don't see why i should have to pay big bucks for some generically detailed locomotive that I'm going to strip and modify anyway. High Priced RTR is about the only choice you have left after a while.

The market for Athearn blue box has passed, which is why they stopped making them. You still find them on hobby shop shelves because no one wants them. There are so many other products out there that have replaced them. We lament Athearn, but has anyone noticed Accurail's extensive line of kits that are of similar nature to Athearn's blue box, and slightly better quality paint and detailing? The trucks and couplers leave a little to be desired, but the basic kit is quite good.

I'll give you that Accurail often gets forgotten. I have a few of their freight car kits.

People will always remember when stuff was cheaper when they were a kid. Of course everything costs more now. And there's no reason for you to shell out $150 on stuff you dont want or need. Careful planning of your hobby purchases will prevent buyer's remorse!

Again, Walthers passenger cars weren't all that expensive not very long ago, certainly between the time i graduated highschool and now, they've gone up in price quite a bit with very little improvement to the product.

The higher prices might be legitimate, but i can't go out and buy a new passenger car every few weeks anymore. i don't go to the hobby shops nearly as much as i used to, and when i do go, the people behind the counter say the same thing, the prices are chasing people out.

Holy crap... You buy a new passenger car every week? I don't even buy groceries every week... And you know what? I can't afford to buy the cars I want to make up the 20th Century Limited. I might pick up the Hickory Creek some day, but that's about it. Even if I could buy the whole train, where would I put it?

Read it again, every few weeks, which i would say is about 3 to 5 weeks. If every other month sounds good to you, fine. If the car was only $36 or so, i could easily save up that sort of money and pick the thing up. Even so, i don't necessarily buy just that. Maybe i need decals or tools or parts or whatever. The bottom line is, i can't get as much as i once could on the same amount of money.

Its not like things are now superfantastic and loaded with new details or features, alot of the models are the same they've been for years, but now anywhere from $20 to $40 more than they were just a few short years ago.

Did we mention this is a lifelong hobby? You don't need to buy everything right now. You buy it when you can afford it. This is a hobby, not a job. Can't afford what you want? Maybe you find less expensive ways to get what you want. Everyone is distracted by the shiny and new. I had many "stand-in" models on my last layout... an MDC "old time" wooden caboose to stand-in for an NYC woody... F9's painted in Conrail/MTA colors to stand-in for FL9's... Cheap Life-Like wooden reefers to stand-in for more detailed models...

Thats exactly why i haven't been buying things. I save up my money and buy the one or two pieces every few months, if that. More often then not, my modeling budget gets blown on the little things, like paint, decals and tools and such. Just to do one car or locomotive, those "little things" can get close to $50-60.

Hell, don't mistake me for someone who perpetually buys everything in sight. I pretty much already do stick to a plan for buying things (as you've mentioned). I've gotten my focus down to 1979 in New Jersey, preferably something i can eventually run on an NEC layout.

Bottom line: Prices are NOT chasing people out of this hobby, because if they were, the manufacturers would have gone out of business because no one is buying their product.

-otto-

Well, as you've said before, most people make significantly more than I do. They might be able to afford some of these higher prices, but they're still not getting as much for the money as they used to. I can't really see the logic in justifying continually raising prices with little change in the product. True, manufacturers need to pay for their costs and make a profit, but it doesn't really benefit me as a consumer. At some point, it feels more like they're gouging because they know some nuts will pay for it.

Otto,

I think you are making some valid points here, but I can sure see where GEC is coming from. One of the major costs of production of injection-molded models is the tooling of the dies. If you can keep a casting in production long enough to fully amortize the die work, the cost of producing it should drop dramatically. Improved detailing shouldn't require total retooling unless the original had something basically wrong with it like incorrect dimensions.

Moving production facilities to take advantage of cheap labor can keep costs down, yet companies like Micro-Trains and Con-Cor can produce models at competitive prices with domestic labor.
The Blue Box passenger cars in HO left a little to be desired, even back in the day. While they stood well in comparison to Penn-Line and Tyco, they were short (72') and lacked interior detail. The Rivarossi passenger cars of the same period put them to shame. Rivarossi products had their weaknesses, but mold tooling certainly wasn't one of them.
72' passenger cars were not necessarily unprototypical, but they were the exception, not the norm. And things like a 72' dome coach is just plain wrong.

If a person still has a desire for 1960's-style model trains, go to a Hobby Lobby and buy some Life-Like or Bachmann trainset-quality cars.

I've never regretted paying big bucks for something really nice, whether it is an N-scale loco or special run passenger train, a gun, or a new car. On the other hand, low-buck stuff that looks better than it runs is always a disappointment (and therefore, a waste of money).

My apologies to RMC magazine for the butchering of their name in my previous post.

Les

Without going too far off topic...

If all things were otherwise equal between the 1960s and 1970s and today in the rest of the economy, that is, the "less optional" requirements to support a family, the price increases wouldn't be as big a deal as they appear to be to most of us.

But all things are NOT equal between the two eras. I personally think the amount of disposable income available to the typical model railroader has been going down at the same time that item prices have been going up.

That RTR AB&C Railroad 0-2-0 might be a perfect replica in the scale of your choice, but if it's unaffordable, it's unaffordable. Given today's pre-order protocol (which I think will head over time to "pre-pay", at which time I will head to the exit), it is not an absolute certainty that if you don't get it now, you will be able get it later.

Yes, I miss buying trains for less than a dollar at Two Guys, Korvettes, Woolworth's and even the dear departed Kiddy Mart in Linden, New Jersey, but those times ain't comin' back.