Railroad Forums 

  • The DMV needs all-day bi-drectional commuter rail service between DC, MD and VA.

  • Discussion related to DC area passenger rail services from Northern Virginia to Baltimore, MD. Includes Light Rail and Baltimore Subway.
It is currently Thu May 16, 2024 9:42 pm

The DMV needs all-day bi-drectional commuter rail service between DC, MD and VA.

Discussion related to DC area passenger rail services from Northern Virginia to Baltimore, MD. Includes Light Rail and Baltimore Subway.

Moderators: mtuandrew, therock, Robert Paniagua

The DMV needs all-day bi-drectional commuter rail service between DC, MD and VA.

  by davinp
 
Metro met with MWCOG and they said the DMV needs all day bi-directional commuter rail service between DC, MD and VA.
Also, Metro needs a dedicated source of funding
Unfortuantely, it will take time to build the infrastructure before more MARC and VRE service can be added.

Re: The DMV needs all-day bi-drectional commuter rail service between DC, MD and VA.

  by JDC
 
I think the question is 'if they build it, will they come (back)?' We're in a post-pandemic era and it is not entirely clear to me whether, in maybe another 2-3 years, we're back to the 2019 era of transit use in this region.

Re: The DMV needs all-day bi-drectional commuter rail service between DC, MD and VA.

  by STrRedWolf
 
JDC wrote: ↑Sun May 05, 2024 1:02 pm I think the question is 'if they build it, will they come (back)?' We're in a post-pandemic era and it is not entirely clear to me whether, in maybe another 2-3 years, we're back to the 2019 era of transit use in this region.
The levels will grow back, but lets be clear. It's not going to be the same people. I'm one of those examples.

Re: The DMV needs all-day bi-drectional commuter rail service between DC, MD and VA.

  by scratchyX1
 
STrRedWolf wrote: ↑Mon May 06, 2024 10:31 am
JDC wrote: ↑Sun May 05, 2024 1:02 pm I think the question is 'if they build it, will they come (back)?' We're in a post-pandemic era and it is not entirely clear to me whether, in maybe another 2-3 years, we're back to the 2019 era of transit use in this region.
The levels will grow back, but lets be clear. It's not going to be the same people. I'm one of those examples.
I'm looking at how both DC and Baltimore beltways are gridlocked often, as is 95, so it's clear a lot of people are traveling in the region. There is a need for good connecting transit to the DMV trains, which operate on more than hourly frequency. New long bridge needs to be a priority.

Re: The DMV needs all-day bi-drectional commuter rail service between DC, MD and VA.

  by TheOneKEA
 
scratchyX1 wrote: ↑Mon May 06, 2024 1:42 pm I'm looking at how both DC and Baltimore beltways are gridlocked often, as is 95, so it's clear a lot of people are traveling in the region. There is a need for good connecting transit to the DMV trains, which operate on more than hourly frequency. New long bridge needs to be a priority.
The problem is twofold, in my opinion:

- The Red Line is the only non-bus transit route that serves Union Station, and reaching the rest of the Metrorail system requires changing trains at Gallery Place or Metro Center. If you can't get to your destination on foot, your only other choices are buses, taxis, ride share services, or private hire. If Union Station were served by the M Route Blue Line Loop too I suspect there would be a substantially greater interest in using transit from the Maryland suburbs into the D.C. city center(s).
- Baltimore Penn is too far away from downtown, doesn't directly interchange with the Subway, and reaching the northern part of the main stem of the Light Rail requires doubling back from the Penn spur's interchange station, or walking directly to the first stop heading north from said interchange. Just like in Union Station, getting anywhere that isn't reachable on foot requires buses, taxis, ride shares, or private hire.
- It's been alleged that CSX wants MDOT to triple-track the entire Capitol Subdivision in return for allowing bi-directional all-day passenger service on the MARC Camden Line, and probably wants the Baltimore Terminal Subdivision to be four tracks all the way to Carroll Interlocking, and maybe even all the way to Bailey's Wye as well in order to keep passenger trains out of their way. All-day passenger service to and from Camden Station would probably "move the needle" much more than an increased service at Baltimore Penn, especially during baseball and football season.

The size of the parking lots at Bowie State, Odenton and Halethorpe stations on the Penn Line and Dorsey station on the Camden Line, and the number of vehicles that park at those lots is indicative of a significant transit ridership already, so I believe that there is definitely an opportunity to increase it further once the infrastructure problems are mitigated or solved.

Re: The DMV needs all-day bi-drectional commuter rail service between DC, MD and VA.

  by RandallW
 
Between the Pentagon and Amazon HQ2, getting direct MARC service to Arlington (or even just to L'Enfant Plaza) would radically simplify commuting into Arlington from WV and Maryland for many people. I say L'Enfant Plaza because its a "short" hop on the Yellow Line to the Pentagon from either L'Enfant Plaza or National Landing.

Re: The DMV needs all-day bi-drectional commuter rail service between DC, MD and VA.

  by west point
 
IMO All it tasks is for VaDOT to get the 2nd Long Bridge operational and the associated 4 tracking from CP VA ave to ALX. So everyone in the WASH area call and write your congress critters. Also, the rehabilitation of the 1st street tunnel by Amtrak. Now that Amtrak has settled the WASH US eminent domain action, I believe that full transition of the station to Amtrak was said to be at the end of MAY.

Believe transition partially includes all the present Lesses that the present lessor had? Other than food court business who else leased portions of the station?

Re: The DMV needs all-day bi-drectional commuter rail service between DC, MD and VA.

  by STrRedWolf
 
TheOneKEA wrote: ↑Mon May 06, 2024 6:36 pm - It's been alleged that CSX wants MDOT to triple-track the entire Capitol Subdivision in return for allowing bi-directional all-day passenger service on the MARC Camden Line, and probably wants the Baltimore Terminal Subdivision to be four tracks all the way to Carroll Interlocking, and maybe even all the way to Bailey's Wye as well in order to keep passenger trains out of their way. All-day passenger service to and from Camden Station would probably "move the needle" much more than an increased service at Baltimore Penn, especially during baseball and football season.
It was planned since 2007 to triple-track the Capitol Sub all the way into Camden Yards, although I can do one better, from Union Station up to Camden Yards:
  • Install a fly-over from NEC track 2 northbound (or even a new track 1) to Capitol Sub track 1 (primary northbound).
  • Install a fly-over from Capitol Sub track 2 (primary southbound) to the JD wye.
  • Start triple tracking from JD Interlock up to St. Dennis. Install fly-overs as needed.
  • Close Laurel Racetrack, Jessup, and St. Dennis stations.
Seriously. Savage has a parking garage now and Jessup only has one flag stop. I always question the load at St. Dennis given it's size.

Laurel Racetrack needs serious rebuilding (very derilict), including more digging out of the tunnels because they are EXACTLY 6' tall. I'm 6' 0.5" and I *have* to duck. Even then, I must question if it's worth it, given that Pimico horse race track is going to shut down for rebuilding, with Laurel Racetrack covering the Preakness. The station can't handle such loads as it is now. It will need a rebuild.

Re: The DMV needs all-day bi-drectional commuter rail service between DC, MD and VA.

  by scratchyX1
 
  • Install a fly-over from NEC track 2 northbound (or even a new track 1) to Capitol Sub track 1 (primary northbound).
    I'd say a flyover/under for MARC from the Metropolitan to a track next to the single lead into union station for camden line.
    I remember having to wait 10 minute in mornings for a westbound to clear the way to the split.
    Also one for westbound MARC trains to the Metropolitan, going to silver spring.
  • Install a fly-over from Capitol Sub track 2 (primary southbound) to the JD wye.
    Would this flyover be for freight going south down the alexandria branch?
  • Start triple tracking from JD Interlock up to St. Dennis. Install fly-overs as needed.
  • Close Laurel Racetrack, Jessup, and St. Dennis stations.
    I disagree, Laruel Racetrack should be rebuilt to become the primary station.
    It has room for more parking, (which i think isn't in a floodplain) and more importantly, additional tracks for high platforms.
    It's close enough to the current station, that a pedestrian bridge could link the two.

    Jessup has development around it, better bus service would help.

    For St Dennis, something more involved for replacement.
    http://www.trainweb.org/oldmainline/wastvbp.htm
    Since I read about the Thomas viaduct bypass in Impossible challenge as a kid, I wondered "what if?" it was built, for passenger trains, only.
    Have a flyover from the south, with a third track, and somehow navigate the interstates that were built since the 70s, with a station on the grounds of the now partly closed Brewery. And then a flyover for the DC bound trains.
    Have a shuttle between the station, halthorpe station, and a Yellow bus link bustop.

Re: The DMV needs all-day bi-drectional commuter rail service between DC, MD and VA.

  by STrRedWolf
 
scratchyX1 wrote: ↑Thu May 09, 2024 12:16 pm Install a fly-over from Capitol Sub track 2 (primary southbound) to the JD wye.
Would this flyover be for freight going south down the alexandria branch?
Yes. This will open the way for MARC to go through while an uber-long freight goes down the branch.
Close Laurel Racetrack, Jessup, and St. Dennis stations.
I disagree, Laruel Racetrack should be rebuilt to become the primary station.
It has room for more parking, (which i think isn't in a floodplain) and more importantly, additional tracks for high platforms.
It's close enough to the current station, that a pedestrian bridge could link the two.
You know, I didn't think about that. Hmmm...

Right now: Close the existing station. Move it south to where Laurel Racetrack Road turns east. Tunnel under the railroad to 8' under, and establish parking and a bus station at that corner of the parking lot.
Jessup has development around it, better bus service would help.
The "development" there is mainly industrial. Dorsey ate Jessup's lunch and Savage took up the scraps. There's not a lot left, and MARC knows -- it's only got one train serving it both ways.
For St Dennis, something more involved for replacement.
http://www.trainweb.org/oldmainline/wastvbp.htm
Since I read about the Thomas viaduct bypass in Impossible challenge as a kid, I wondered "what if?" it was built, for passenger trains, only.
Have a flyover from the south, with a third track, and somehow navigate the interstates that were built since the 70s, with a station on the grounds of the now partly closed Brewery. And then a flyover for the DC bound trains.
Have a shuttle between the station, halthorpe station, and a Yellow bus link bustop.
I would agree if MARC and CSX could double-track the Old Main between Point of Rocks and St. Dennis and run Fredrick-Baltimore service, you'll off-load I-70 a good bit. So flyover from the Old Main to the south side of Baltimore Terminal District Subdiv to align it with ether the Howard Street Tunnel or the yards by Riverside.

Re: The DMV needs all-day bi-drectional commuter rail service between DC, MD and VA.

  by TheOneKEA
 
I have read that CSX owns quite a bit of unused right-of-way in the vicinity of I-89 and the Patapsco River in Elkridge that was intended to serve as the route of the freight bypass of the Thomas Viaduct and the curvature of the track on the south and east side of the viaduct. If this bypass could someday be built (which would require extensive environmental studies) then the southern end of the Baltimore Terminal Subdivision could be reworked to provide a better passenger station at St. Denis, or even a relocation closer to Halethorpe and the Penn Line station nearby.
STrRedWolf wrote: ↑Thu May 09, 2024 3:30 pm I would agree if MARC and CSX could double-track the Old Main between Point of Rocks and St. Dennis and run Fredrick-Baltimore service, you'll off-load I-70 a good bit. So flyover from the Old Main to the south side of Baltimore Terminal District Subdiv to align it with ether the Howard Street Tunnel or the yards by Riverside.
The problem with running a passenger service on the Old Main Line is that the average speeds are rather low (30mph?), and increasing them would require extensive earthworks inside of the state park and the surrounding areas. Also, there would be a big-time challenge finding places to build suitably sized parking lots for stations between Sykesville and Ellicott City (of which there would be only two in this scenario - Marriottsville and Woodstock).

A quick check of an old CSX Baltimore Division timetable shows that the OML from Frederick Junction to the Baltimore Terminal is 48.3 miles long. Assuming an average speed of 30mph, plus 2-3 minutes for a station stop, a through journey from Frederick Junction to St. Denis would be approximately 90 minutes. I don't know if that's competitive with a journey by car or by carpooling.

Re: The DMV needs all-day bi-drectional commuter rail service between DC, MD and VA.

  by scratchyX1
 
TheOneKEA wrote: ↑Thu May 09, 2024 6:02 pm I have read that CSX owns quite a bit of unused right-of-way in the vicinity of I-89 and the Patapsco River in Elkridge that was intended to serve as the route of the freight bypass of the Thomas Viaduct and the curvature of the track on the south and east side of the viaduct. If this bypass could someday be built (which would require extensive environmental studies) then the southern end of the Baltimore Terminal Subdivision could be reworked to provide a better passenger station at St. Denis, or even a relocation closer to Halethorpe and the Penn Line station nearby
I wonder if land around the brewery was rezoned,and a private company built it to serve their housing,NEPA could be streamlined, like it has for brightline.
If it had high platforms, even better.

TheOneKEA wrote: ↑Thu May 09, 2024 6:02 pmA quick check of an old CSX Baltimore Division timetable shows that the OML from Frederick Junction to the Baltimore Terminal is 48.3 miles long. Assuming an average speed of 30mph, plus 2-3 minutes for a station stop, a through journey from Frederick Junction to St. Denis would be approximately 90 minutes. I don't know if that's competitive with a journey by car or by carpooling.
Unless there is an accident on 70, it'll Never be competitive on the OML.

Re: The DMV needs all-day bi-drectional commuter rail service between DC, MD and VA.

  by STrRedWolf
 
TheOneKEA wrote: ↑Thu May 09, 2024 6:02 pm The problem with running a passenger service on the Old Main Line is that the average speeds are rather low (30mph?), and increasing them would require extensive earthworks inside of the state park and the surrounding areas. Also, there would be a big-time challenge finding places to build suitably sized parking lots for stations between Sykesville and Ellicott City (of which there would be only two in this scenario - Marriottsville and Woodstock).

A quick check of an old CSX Baltimore Division timetable shows that the OML from Frederick Junction to the Baltimore Terminal is 48.3 miles long. Assuming an average speed of 30mph, plus 2-3 minutes for a station stop, a through journey from Frederick Junction to St. Denis would be approximately 90 minutes. I don't know if that's competitive with a journey by car or by carpooling.
Just double-tracking them will require extensive tunneling/bridging/construction/etc. I doubt we'll have that service for a long while.

Re: The DMV needs all-day bi-drectional commuter rail service between DC, MD and VA.

  by scratchyX1
 
STrRedWolf wrote: ↑Fri May 10, 2024 10:15 am
TheOneKEA wrote: ↑Thu May 09, 2024 6:02 pm The problem with running a passenger service on the Old Main Line is that the average speeds are rather low (30mph?), and increasing them would require extensive earthworks inside of the state park and the surrounding areas. Also, there would be a big-time challenge finding places to build suitably sized parking lots for stations between Sykesville and Ellicott City (of which there would be only two in this scenario - Marriottsville and Woodstock).

A quick check of an old CSX Baltimore Division timetable shows that the OML from Frederick Junction to the Baltimore Terminal is 48.3 miles long. Assuming an average speed of 30mph, plus 2-3 minutes for a station stop, a through journey from Frederick Junction to St. Denis would be approximately 90 minutes. I don't know if that's competitive with a journey by car or by carpooling.
Just double-tracking them will require extensive tunneling/bridging/construction/etc. I doubt we'll have that service for a long while.
On one hand, the entire route was at one time double tracked. When I was a kid, I think I walked most of it from avalon to mt airy.
On the other hand, it's never going to compete with I70 speeds.
Having hourly buses (half hour, for rush hour) running in the break down lane, with stations with walkways tunneled/ bridged over to lots for park and ride (and maybe level 4 AV trams or similar micromobility to nearby areas with population) at New Market, Mt Airy , Hunt Valley golf resort , Howard county fair grounds, and Frederick would get more use.
Maybe integrate it with one of the proposed MTA plans for dedicated BRT lanes in US40 from Baltimore to "Ellicott city " (Which is essentially the entire top 1/4 of Howard county) . It'll be a lot cheaper than rail.

Now, taking the engineering studies for the I270 monorail, and using that for MARC service to Frederick from DC would be worth the money. Especially if DMU or similar trains were used for more frequent service, at least to silver spring.
This would go well with the
https://s3.amazonaws.com/mta-website-st ... 202023.pdf
Brunswick line Master Plan.
Except building in 270 would cut at least 30 minutes off the trip, if not more, and would take a bit of traffic off that route.
Sadly, Camden line trains seem to be the best positioned for Virginia run throughs, for now.

Re: The DMV needs all-day bi-drectional commuter rail service between DC, MD and VA.

  by TheOneKEA
 
STrRedWolf wrote: ↑Fri May 10, 2024 10:15 am
TheOneKEA wrote: ↑Thu May 09, 2024 6:02 pm The problem with running a passenger service on the Old Main Line is that the average speeds are rather low (30mph?), and increasing them would require extensive earthworks inside of the state park and the surrounding areas. Also, there would be a big-time challenge finding places to build suitably sized parking lots for stations between Sykesville and Ellicott City (of which there would be only two in this scenario - Marriottsville and Woodstock).

A quick check of an old CSX Baltimore Division timetable shows that the OML from Frederick Junction to the Baltimore Terminal is 48.3 miles long. Assuming an average speed of 30mph, plus 2-3 minutes for a station stop, a through journey from Frederick Junction to St. Denis would be approximately 90 minutes. I don't know if that's competitive with a journey by car or by carpooling.
Just double-tracking them will require extensive tunneling/bridging/construction/etc. I doubt we'll have that service for a long while.
As the other poster mentioned already, the entire OML used to be double tracked throughout, and restoring the missing bridge spans and other earthworks would not be as extensive or difficult as it would have been if the route had not originally been double tracked. It would still be expensive though since all of the tunnels would need to have their track beds lowered by several feet to provide gauge clearance for the autoracks that regularly ply the route.
 Return to “DC - Maryland - Virginia Area Passenger Rail: MTA(MARC), VRE, WMATA(Metro)”
 - All times are UTC-05:00 -