Toys or Us has no model train section anymore

umtrr-author wrote:Yes, I miss buying trains for less than a dollar at Two Guys, Korvettes, Woolworth's and even the dear departed Kiddy Mart in Linden, New Jersey, but those times ain't comin' back.

And let's not forget W.T. Grant's and Kresge's

umtrr-author wrote:Without going too far off topic...

If all things were otherwise equal between the 1960s and 1970s and today in the rest of the economy, that is, the "less optional" requirements to support a family, the price increases wouldn't be as big a deal as they appear to be to most of us.

In all honestly, they still would be. It is a mistake to compare prices and situations from 30 or 40 years ago when it comes to discussing today's rapidly rising cost of model railroading. The fact is that model pricing, relative to the value of the dollar even when adjusted for inflation, progressively decreased throughout the 70's and 80's. One did not see the beginnings of the hobby's runaway inflation until fairly late in the 1990's.

To obtain a more honest assessment of the current situation and to demonstrate how dramatic the price increases have been, one should be comparing prices from just 12 to 15 years ago with those now. Doing so will much more clearly illustrate the changes that have occurred. And this striking alteration is certainly not just in the area of locomotives and passenger cars. While Accurail and Bowser cars may still be reasonably affordable, the most recently offered freight cars from various manufacturers sell almost exclusively in the $30 to $50 range.

Look at even the simplest and most basic of items, like track, scenery materials, or low-end structure kits. In most instances the prices of items identical with those sold in the mid 90's have at least doubled, if not tripled. How many hobbyists here can say that their salaries have jumped by a similar factor over the same interval? The fact is that many of us are working for very nearly the same salaries as we were a decade ago and most recently many have taken pay cuts just to retain employment. With the decline of disposable income, hobby dollars get you less and less.

I can appreciate that many of the younger hobbyists who populate the Internet have not been around long enough to appreciate just how dramatically hobby prices have escalated in the past 12-15 years. Take it from an old hand; the affordability of model railroading is drastically different from what it was not all that long ago and what made it a far more widely practiced hobby. And the disappearing model railroad hobby shops are a direct result to these changes.

CNJ999

That was exactly my point... things are not equal...

Whether it's 12 to 15 years or 30 to 40 years, price increases on many fronts have outpaced the general ability for the typical consumer to pay for items. The New York Times today reported on a Kaiser Family Foundation study showing that health care costs have about doubled from 2001 to now while salaries have increased 34 percent.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/28/busin ... shows.html

Doesn't seem like there's much extra for choo-choos after that, regardless of how much better they may be...

Boy, is that ever true!
When my first child was born, while I was working on the Milwaukee Road, my out-of-pocket costs for medical services related to the birth amounted to $15!

Another possible place to look for model railroad equipment is Ben Franklin stores. The Ben Franklin in my little town is really a craft shop. Lots of possible scenery and scratchbuilding supplies, but nothing specifically for model railroads. On the other hand, the Ben Franklin in McCook, NE had (and still has, as far as I know) a complete hobby shop in its basement. Model railroad equipment in all popular scales, including locomotives!

From what I have seen of Ben Franklin, the franchise holder pretty much has say over what each store carries.

Les

We could also add to the fact that even with prices going up on everything we also get a vary short window from the model company's to get are orders placed and often there is little to no notice of a new Product till we get the Email or just happen to here about it a few weeks later in are local hobby shop(s). It seems to get tough when one thing comes out and you order it then something else comes out a few days later and you don't have the money because it was already spent on the first order or spent on a high bill. It dose not make it any easier when some hobby shops are now requiring a nonrefundable deposit on something that might keep getting delayed or on rare occasion is canceled due to a lack of orders for the manufactures coast to buy the materials to make it worth while to make the item(s).

for peopple expexting to find model train in Toy "R" Us and even in Zellers,Wal-Mart or any kind of toys store,they will not find anymore..
even hard to find a trainset starter box kit with train and tracks included..
no choice to go in a hobbyshop..

In Montreal city,till the 90's,we are able to find some many hobbyshop,may be 12 or more..
now,we counting only 3 or 4 hobbyshop in all Montreal surrounding area.
As Udisco,Hobby-Junction,Van-Horne and 'loco-Passion...

when I started back in model trains in early 2000's I made almost every pace that I was going before in the early 90's and all the hobbyshop that I was going were disappeared or have been closed..
then I found Udisco and Hobby-Junction,where I going now for my train models..

less store make less competition,and much higher prices..

Craft stores have been mentioned a couple times in this thread and, in fact, our local A.C. Moore carries a decent selection of Woodland Scenics products along with some basic Bachmann HO and Lionel train sets and accessories. Although they typically price the items at list, they offer 50% off coupons almost weekly which are good on the scenic materials.

I've been following this thread and found one thing missing in the discussion....Be glad that a lot of manufacturers do take the regular guy into consideration when producing a new model and don't follow e-commerce sites such as eBay closely and watch their merchandise get bid up to exorborant amounts of money and set the market at those prices.

If I was Athearn-Walthers and I witnessed buyers willing to bid and pay up to $200 for an Amtrak Phase V P42 which sells for $60-80, I personally would sell them at those prices because I know someone out there is willing to pay for it.

We as consumers drive the prices up, because of wanting it right now, wanting more detail and accuracy & rivet counting, and then cry broke & foul when we see the final price.

B44NYC wrote:I've been following this thread and found one thing missing in the discussion....Be glad that a lot of manufacturers do take the regular guy into consideration when producing a new model and don't follow e-commerce sites such as eBay closely and watch their merchandise get bid up to exorborant amounts of money and set the market at those prices.

If I was Athearn-Walthers and I witnessed buyers willing to bid and pay up to $200 for an Amtrak Phase V P42 which sells for $60-80, I personally would sell them at those prices because I know someone out there is willing to pay for it.

We as consumers drive the prices up, because of wanting it right now, wanting more detail and accuracy & rivet counting, and then cry broke & foul when we see the final price.

And some people on eBay start auctions at $1 for rolling stock and the amount of people bidding on it will drive it up over the MSRP.

You have to remember that manufacturers have to sell to a customer base. They need to reasonably expect to sell enough units to not only cover the cost of bringing the product to the market, but to make a profit as well.

I have never done anything on e-bay. From what I have heard, there are people there who sometimes will pay exorbitant prices for items they want. I suspect they just get caught up in the excitement of bidding. Maybe they have some sort of compulsion.

If I were a manufacturer, I would follow e-bay. Not to determine how much I could ask for a product, but to judge demand for out-of-production items.

Les

Ebay is getting intense. I just watched an MBTA cab car go for $92+. I bought just one such car a year ago with the intention of using it for spare parts, but I have not done so. I'm starting to think it might pay to sell it!

In all seriousness though, Ebay is probably bad for determining prices as a mass manufacturer. When its just us selling the thing we bought for a reasonable price, we make a big profit.

But if there are only 5 nuts who will buy it at a model at $200, they might not really get there money back in producing the model. If they sell it for $120, more people will buy it, perhaps significantly more. That's more profit than just selling it for $200.

for me,eBay are a place where I can find pieces that hard to find,but I'm always try to get the better price as possible
I found there a Athearn blue box VIA FA unit and two FB unit,a rare Athearn item that we can't find anymore..
the price were great,only 30$ for all 3 pieces..

and the funny thing,I saw this week the VIA B-unit from Athearn B-B serie and it was 45$ when it was sold,,

but for handrails and some parts,it's the place to find them.

green_elite_cab wrote:Ebay is getting intense. I just watched an MBTA cab car go for $92+. I bought just one such car a year ago with the intention of using it for spare parts, but I have not done so. I'm starting to think it might pay to sell it!

In all seriousness though, Ebay is probably bad for determining prices as a mass manufacturer. When its just us selling the thing we bought for a reasonable price, we make a big profit.

But if there are only 5 nuts who will buy it at a model at $200, they might not really get there money back in producing the model. If they sell it for $120, more people will buy it, perhaps significantly more. That's more profit than just selling it for $200.

If you want one just for parts I'll trade you an Amtrak PH 3 horizon cafe. I can always use a few more MBTA cars.

At least with the specific "Toys R Us" example listed in the first post, there could be some resentment on the part of them too. In the 1980s, Lionel decided to compete with them and opened up stores called "Kiddie City" (slogan with bouncing kangeroo: "turn that frown, upside down.") They didn't last forever and then disappeared. With video games taking up most of the space I doubt trains will return. Who wants them?

I was in the local Toys R Us last month and saw a TON of toy trains: Thomas the Tank engine in "Brio-like" form, plastic train form, etc, plus new competiting trains that can interact (talk) to one another when placed in close proximity. There were lots of toys but no model trains. And with good reason: when they carried Like Like trains in the 1980s-1990s they were plastic junk. I wonder how many kids got one of their sets and had it quit after only a few days. There are now some plastic Lionel sets which is probably the best one can hope for.

Benjamin Maggi wrote:At least with the specific "Toys R Us" example listed in the first post, there could be some resentment on the part of them too. In the 1980s, Lionel decided to compete with them and opened up stores called "Kiddie City" (slogan with bouncing kangeroo: "turn that frown, upside down.") They didn't last forever and then disappeared.

Kiddie City was actually around long before the 80's. They were a staple in the Philladelphia area and southeastern states for many years and yes, sadly, did have a stint with Lionel ownership. The story at the time was that TrU and KC had a "gentleman's agreement" that they would not impinge on each others' trading areas. I'm not sure which company took the first step away from that agreement but TrU eventually crushed Kiddie City and they went bankrupt. As an aside, the Kiddie City headquarters and warehouse in Northeast Philadelphia had an active siding and used rail service right up til the end.