Route 78: New bus route - Cornwells to 30th St. Express

Given the timefame (outside of normal service hours), this may be a way for Septa to judge overall daily commuting early morning & late late night service without having to go through the expense of purchasing additional slots from Amtrak for those trips. Running trains during these times may be a hindrance with normal maintenance windows. Also note that crew size is limited to one 234 driver and not an engineer & conductor for amount of seats available.

Personally, this adds a few later transit options when i find myself in ccp late at night ...

(Note to the mod's: let this stay an unlocked topic as long as it doesn't turn into bus.net)

It's about moving the IRS service center from the far NE to the Cira Centre. The IRS has a large number of late shift employees. Running an express bus is cheaper than running a train. But perhaps if the bus is successful enough, it will be the precursor to an extra round trip on the Trenton line timed to the IRS shifts.

Matthew Mitchell wrote:Running an express bus is cheaper than running a train. But perhaps if the bus is successful enough, it will be the precursor to an extra round trip on the Trenton line timed to the IRS shifts.

Are you sure Matt? The R7 costs just $0.52 per passenger mile to operate. Regional rail service in general needs only $0.71 subsidy per dollar of paid fare. SEPTA's buses on the otherhand require $2.56, which makes it extremely cost prohibitive. These figures are from the FTA's National Transit database.

Hopefully this is just a temporary operation as a precursor to added train service. Time will tell if people will pay the $6 fare to ride a bus to center city when they could do it for 1/3 the cost and ride the el shuttle.

If they're catering to the 3rd shift at the new IRS facility, it would make more sense to extend MFSE service for another hour which is needed anyway since the owl buses are struggling to meet capacity.

Can't say I'm certain, Jon, but the incremental costs of an additional late night train are likely to be higher than the average cost over the entire day's service. Also, those trips are likely to carry very few passengers to and from other stations (though anything you get there is a bonus). And true I've been critical of long-haul bus routes in the past, though this one is going to be a good deal faster than the typical route, and thus more efficient.

I think it's a good idea to try out--to try and get a grasp of that potential ridership before making the commitment to added rail service. I don't see this competing significantly with the owl buses--they're much slower, and many potential riders will shun them for fear of crime.

jfrey40535 wrote:

Matthew Mitchell wrote:Running an express bus is cheaper than running a train. But perhaps if the bus is successful enough, it will be the precursor to an extra round trip on the Trenton line timed to the IRS shifts.

Hopefully this is just a temporary operation as a precursor to added train service. Time will tell if people will pay the $6 fare to ride a bus to center city when they could do it for 1/3 the cost and ride the el shuttle.

If they're catering to the 3rd shift at the new IRS facility, it would make more sense to extend MFSE service for another hour which is needed anyway since the owl buses are struggling to meet capacity.

Yes, if the 78 is "successful", that should lead to additional R7 (oops, Trenton Line) service, which will be great because I hear from people (Bristol Area) that wish there was a way to get downtown by 6 AM. Too bad it's only leaving from the Cornwells Heights P&R. I actually wondered why the R7 never was a success with later service.

I think the additional MFO express to Frankford is to accomodate the IRS workers as well. At first, I thought more MFL service would be best, and then I saw that "World's Toughest Fixes" feature.

Matthew Mitchell wrote: I think it's a good idea to try out--to try and get a grasp of that potential ridership before making the commitment to added rail service. I don't see this competing significantly with the owl buses--they're much slower, and many potential riders will shun them for fear of crime.

There's no competition at all. This is a trip where passengers are only permitted to discharge at the end.

I remain skeptical. Its unlikely that a $6 bus at the Cornwells PNR will draw a huge crowd. At most, you'll be able to seat 38 riders. The rest would have to stand.

For $1 less, IRS/late night workers can park in the Frankford Garage, which is 99% empty at night. The incremental costs of a 2 car train would be higher than the daytime average, but it will still be lower than the bus which costs almost 4 times as much to operate. Thrifty commuters will flock to Frankford, though at night, its a sure thing they'll park on the street to save the $3.15 to park in the garage (which is common practice during the day).

What's the difference in making a commitment to a new bus route vs. 3 extra trains? With route planning and signage, SEPTA will incur more startup expenses in starting up the route plus marketing the service.

I'm going to make the prediction that the 78 will not be widely popular, and will not directly result in 3 extra trains on the "R7".

radioboy wrote:This is a trip where passengers are only permitted to discharge at the end.

<cynicism> ... until riders on other lines see the 78 buses going past without stopping. They'll fuss about "special treatment" and pretty soon it'll be converted into a quasi-local operation. That's already been the fate of the 12X series in the western suburbs.</cynicism>

JeffK wrote:

radioboy wrote:This is a trip where passengers are only permitted to discharge at the end.

<cynicism> ... until riders on other lines see the 78 buses going past without stopping. They'll fuss about "special treatment" and pretty soon it'll be converted into a quasi-local operation. That's already been the fate of the 12X series in the western suburbs.</cynicism>

I hope that the R78 doesn't make stops enroute, it would be quite hard to flag down a bus while waiting on the sholder of I95

I agree that the $6 fare will kill it. You can easily drive to Frankford to catch the el in morning. The first train is a 4:40 non-stop express to 15th, then onto 30th. Then there's regular EL service starting at 5:00 a.m. The last schedule EL before Owl Bus service is 12:24 a.m from 30th to Frankford. Just add one or two more runs on the EL. That will help the IRS employees as well as the rest of us.

world traveler wrote:I agree that the $6 fare will kill it. You can easily drive to Frankford to catch the el in morning. The first train is a 4:40 non-stop express to 15th, then onto 30th. Then there's regular EL service starting at 5:00 a.m. The last schedule EL before Owl Bus service is 12:24 a.m from 30th to Frankford. Just add one or two more runs on the EL. That will help the IRS employees as well as the rest of us.

I expect there will be lots of people who will happily drive to Cornwells Heights but have not set foot in Frankford Terminal since the '70s for fear of crime. This bus may work out better than you think.

It's possible this will get us some new train riders, who will take the bus one way and use the train on the other leg of their trip.

I'm a tiny bit confused about the route. Apparently I-95 south to I-76 west, get off at 30th St, which involves about a 2 block jughandle loop north and south again, and about a 1 block loop west around 30th St station, then backtrack east on Market St till 8th. Although that's the way the train goes, south-west then south-east then east, isn't one of the so-called advantages of rubber tires the ability to choose straighter routes? Why don't they get off I-95 at Callowhill St, go west to 8th, south to Market, then west to 30th St?

Why is the $6 cash fare relevant? Don't these riders have Trailpasses? And if not, they're certainly better off buying one.

gardendance wrote:It's possible this will get us some new train riders, who will take the bus one way and use the train on the other leg of their trip.

I'm a tiny bit confused about the route. Apparently I-95 south to I-76 west, get off at 30th St, which involves about a 2 block jughandle loop north and south again, and about a 1 block loop west around 30th St station, then backtrack east on Market St till 8th. Although that's the way the train goes, south-west then south-east then east, isn't one of the so-called advantages of rubber tires the ability to choose straighter routes? Why don't they get off I-95 at Callowhill St, go west to 8th, south to Market, then west to 30th St?

Did you mean to say I-676 (Vine Street Expressway) west? Or did you really mean I-76 (Schuylkill Expressway)?

I don't remember if the original post (now on a different page and not in the scrolling section below) specifically mentions that it will go down I-95. And in fact, after I had a chance to think about this bus, several hours after reading this topic initially, I pictured it taking the following route:

Woodhaven Road to Roosevelt Blvd. (US 1) express lanes, which becomes Roosevelt Expressway, then Schuylkill Expressway to 30th Street Station. And then Market Street eastbound to the other stops. And then the same thing in reverse. At the times when this bus is scheduled to run, the various roads I just mentioned are not crowded with traffic.

When I lived in Montgomery County, MD, and worked in downtown DC in the pre-Metro-to-that-part-of-the-area days of the mid-1970s, I rode a morning express bus that made only one pick-up spot, at a park-and-ride lot, and then didn't stop to discharge passengers until it was almost to downtown. Then it did the reverse in the afternoon. The drivers sometimes varied the route depending on traffic. The drivers on the new route 78 may also have this discretion and thus may be on US 1/I-76 some days and I-95/I-676 or I-76 on others.

Sorry, yes I meant I676.
Now that you mention Woodhaven Rd, the easiest way I can think of to get from the Cornwells Heights parking lot to I-95 south does involve heading west under I-95, south on US13, then through the Woodhaven Rd US13 interchange from which one could go west on Woodhaven Rd to US1, or back east on Woodhaven Rd to the I95 south junction.
I don't think even at that time of early morning, 5am or midnight, that US1-I76 gives any reliable time advantage over I95-I676. Remember that to get to 30th ST the railroad makes an arc to the west before coming back east, US1 makes an even bigger arc west before I76 comes back east, and has lots of traffic lights, and 45mph speed limit before it becomes an expressway, vs I95-I676 no traffic lights and 55mph speed limit.