Route 78: New bus route - Cornwells to 30th St. Express

Good morning, Ladies and Gentlemen!

I just wanted to report that I took the Route 78 this morning. It began in the Cornwells Heights parking lot. I got there at 5:20, with about 15 people waiting. By the time the bus departed at 5:30 (Yes, it departed 5 minutes late), there were about 25 people on that bus, including myself. There were plenty of seats for many more people. The bus was an articulated bus taken from Neshaminy as evidenced from its entrance from Woodhaven Rd East and Route 14 timetables all over the place. I can only assume that the operator drove to FTC after the final discharge at 8th Street.

Although I admit that I am biased through my love of riding the rails, I need to say that the ride itself wasn't that bad. Every bump and pothole could be felt on 95, not to mention the bus itself felt slow as I sat there watching traffic pass on all sides. I think the hybrid busses would ride better, but nothing can possibly substitute for a ride consisting of steel wheels on steel rails.

Speaking of discharging passengers, everyone except one other gentleman and myself, got off at 30th Street Station. I got off at 8th. After passengers discharged at 30th Street, a man approached the bus asking to go to 15th Street. The driver responded that he could go, but had to pay $6 to do it since it was a special bus. The man backed off to wait for the next bus.

I would do this again as needed, but it is still not a train. If anything, I feel that in the future, SEPTA should combine the Route 78 Timetable in the Trenton Line timetable similar to what NJT does with the RiverLINE in the Northeast Corridor timetable. I'm going to write a positive review to Customer Service.

well heres something i found on youtube
its the route 78
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nivU1tBEtbQ
thanks to Silverliner II for uploading it to youtube

zebrasepta wrote:well heres something i found on youtube
its the route 78
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nivU1tBEtbQ
thanks to Silverliner II for uploading it to youtube

I see that the number that appears in the bottom left corner of the front window - I believe it's called a block number, or was called that by Metrobus when I lived in DC - is 1099. Quite fitting for an IRS run. I wonder if one of the other runs is 1040.

rslitman wrote:I see that the number that appears in the bottom left corner of the front window - I believe it's called a block number, or was called that by Metrobus when I lived in DC - is 1099. Quite fitting for an IRS run. I wonder if one of the other runs is 1040.

It is the block number.

Okay, I know that I am resurrecting an old topic, and about a bus no less, but this is relevant to rail.

I was looking at the new Rt. 78 schedule effective February 14 and noticed that there are now three runs within 5 minutes to replace the original 5:25 run. I have taken this specific bus several times, and it is a wild success with multiple articulated buses (those long accordian buses for those who don't know) being filled on a daily basis.

So, the question is, how many buses does it take until we get a train on this run? Why not a train? Is there a specific reason?

I see nothing wrong with resurrecting an old thread, especially as opposed to creating a new one.
I hate to be the bus, devil's, advocate, but some people like the flexibility of 3 times vs what probably would be 1 if it were a train, so it's possible the 3 buses might have more passengers than 1 train, which I guess probably would be Trenton-Market East. Would it spend the night in Trenton, or deadhead from a Philly yard?

If it were a Cornwells Heights only train then I think it must deadhead from a Philly yard or Trenton. Is that deadhead run more or less wasteful than the 3 buses non-revenue portion?

Wow it's great to learn that it's so successful! I think SEPTA has an issue with limited storage space up by Trenton. They'd essentially have to deadhead a train out there, which significantly increases cost, especially running on Amtrak's line.

I haven't seen the buses, but I park at Cornwells Heights on a frequent basis during the midday when I have to go downtown. It's basically a guarantee that I have to park all the way in the 2nd lot these days. Thank heavens for the shuttle!

It's likely still cheaper to run the bus...and although I'm sure many others would love an earlier train, the future of state funding seems to be "up in the air". Also, I wouldn't be surprised if the new labor laws, limiting the amount of hours a railroad employee can work even more than before, may have SEPTA's hands tied on railroad service expansions as well!

Perhaps SEPTA likes the higher subsidy payments they get for running buses?
According to the FTA's National Transit database, in 2009 it cost 99 cents for each mile each passenger rode on buses, with $0.65 of that being made up of subsidy. Meanwhile, Regional Rail only costs $0.40 per passenger mile with a subsidy of only $0.15 per passenger mile. That's a 77% difference!! Now this exact forumula may not apply to Route 78 specifically, but clearly we should be steering riders to the rails as much as possible, especially when the only two stops on the route are at rail stations. Run the trains, and you'll get more riders. Feed the trains with buses instead of using them to substitute rail service.
That's a path to sustaibability.

I wouldn't be surprised if union consideration was involved too. The former special IRS runs on the 14 and 1 are what's paying for the 78 if I'm not mistaken.

jfrey40535 wrote:Feed the trains with buses instead of using them to substitute rail service.

I've mentioned before, the bus schedule, around 5:30 am inbound, 12:30 and 1:30 am outbound, pretty much means round trip riders with around an 8 hour work day must use something else for the other leg of their trip. Unless the bus rider going to work gets a lift in an automobile, they must use the train to get home, so this bus can be feeding riders to the train.

Patrick Boylan wrote:I hate to be the bus, devil's, advocate, but some people like the flexibility of 3 times vs what probably would be 1 if it were a train, so it's possible the 3 buses might have more passengers than 1 train, which I guess probably would be Trenton-Market East.

The times on the upcoming schedule are 5:20 AM, 5:23 AM, and 5:25 AM, as opposed to the currently scheduled 5:25 AM. A train could capture all three buses at 5:25. In fact, it surprised me that the Rt. 78 schedule was not added to the updated Trenton Timetable.

Patrick Boylan wrote:If it were a Cornwells Heights only train then I think it must deadhead from a Philly yard or Trenton. Is that deadhead run more or less wasteful than the 3 buses non-revenue portion?

I don't know the technical aspects of the line, but would it be possible for a SEPTA Train to switch from Track 3 to Track 1 at Holmesburg Junction for a deadhead to Cornwells Heights? Alternatively, I don't understand why SEPTA can't take control of NJT's old Barracks Yard up in Trenton.

jfrey40535 wrote:...but clearly we should be steering riders to the rails as much as possible, especially when the only two stops on the route are at rail stations. Run the trains, and you'll get more riders.

I agree with your viewpoint here, except I need to make a correction for you. The Route 78 expresses to 30th Street, but does continue all the way down Market Street to Market East Station (which is what I do). It would stop at Suburban too, if people are willing to get off there. Most of the riders, however, get off at 30th Street.

Tritransit Area wrote:The former special IRS runs on the 14 and 1 are what's paying for the 78 if I'm not mistaken.

Also, in reference to the subsidy, are these buses really subsidized? Cash fare is $6.00, no tokens or anything below a Zone 3 trailpass is accepted. Sounds like the rail fare structure. Oh wait...it IS the rail fare structure.

Speaking of capacity, I counted 60 seats per articulated bus. A single Silverliner 4 can hold about 110 passengers, IIRC. If there are already 3 buses filled to capacity, that would be 180 people, enough for a 2 car Silverliner 4 train with some extra capacity for growth. If you throw in flag stops between Trenton and Cornwells, you might be able to fill that empty capacity. Heck, if that was done, I wouldn't even need to pull the car out of the garage to drive to Cornwells! However, that would be an addition of 16 non-revenue miles to a deadhead run.

In addition, it wouldn't hurt for SEPTA to market this bus to the healthcare industry, such as to those at Jefferson and Penn. Capture some more riders from those early shifts!

I was wondering what the cause was for the second large lot at Cornwells finally seeing usage. Septa should really see what kind of additional demand there would be at other NEC stations if they were to convert these runs into a train.

I agree with you all about looking at the opportunity to add extra train service. I know there are people in Bristol that would take an earlier train, especially for the healthcare industry that you all mention.

I asked about what it would take to put on both an early AM inbound train and a late after-midnight outbound train to replace the buses. Some of the factors against it we already can guess, but I'll go through everything here:

1. Manpower (on the railroad side) as well as equipment to handle the trips.

2. No storage space available at Trenton. I had the same thought about Barracks Yard, but it being flood-prone may be a turn-off. If SEPTA had a useable yard at Trenton, then it would just be a case of getting equipment to run the trips.

3. Operational difficulties. The morning train would have to cross over from #1 or #2 at Holmes to #4 Track and get a Form D to run against the current between Holmes and Grundy, assuming the block is clear, and with the first regular train already heading down, that would be a problem. Likewise for the outbound train after midnight; since the parking lot shuttles are long done for the night by then, it would be a long walk from the outbound platform for riders, the same move at Holmes would have to be done. And Amtrak would have to agree to let SEPTA run the trains at all.

4. Cost; SEPTA doesn't have it in the budget. The runs on Route 78 are interlined off existing Route 14 trips, so the vehicles and drivers are already on the street and working the same number of hours; the difference is made up by the elimination of the old Route 14 IRS trips as mentioned earlier.

None of these problems are impossible to overcome. Just a big hurdle, given the current funding situation.

Out of curiosity, who did you ask?

Maybe if SEPTA cut some of the underutilized buses out there at night, we'd have funding to run the trains we need.