Route 78: New bus route - Cornwells to 30th St. Express

ExCon90 wrote:Why is the $6 cash fare relevant? Don't these riders have Trailpasses? And if not, they're certainly better off buying one.

If this route is intended for IRS workers, no. The IRS service center is not near any passenger rail line, so people who work there arrive by car or bus.

gardendance wrote:Now that you mention Woodhaven Rd, the easiest way I can think of to get from the Cornwells Heights parking lot to I-95 south does involve heading west under I-95, south on US13, then through the Woodhaven Rd US13 interchange from which one could go west on Woodhaven Rd to US1, or back east on Woodhaven Rd to the I95 south junction.
I don't think even at that time of early morning, 5am or midnight, that US1-I76 gives any reliable time advantage over I95-I676. Remember that to get to 30th ST the railroad makes an arc to the west before coming back east, US1 makes an even bigger arc west before I76 comes back east, and has lots of traffic lights, and 45mph speed limit before it becomes an expressway, vs I95-I676 no traffic lights and 55mph speed limit.

As a driver to Cornwells Heights once or twice a year to take the Trenton line train to Trenton and then NJT to New York, I am only familiar with coming into and exiting the big free parking lot on the inbound (from a going-to-Philadelphia perspective) side. This is done via a series of ramps that connect I-95, Woodhaven Rd., and that parking lot. There's no way I can get to the pay lots and the road that connects them by car from that lot without violating some "Do Not Enter" signs. The shuttle busses go that way, and so do I on foot when I've gone to that station when the shuttle isn't working or, as it did the most recent time I did this, mid-day on Friday, July 9, went over the other side to meet the outbound passengers long before the train was due but after I got to the station. Fortunately, there was enough time for me to walk over there myself in the high heat and humidity.

I don't know what that road is or how to get to it from other roads. I am guessing that it intersects with Bristol Pike - US 13 - a bit north of Woodhaven. But I'm guessing that that is the exit from Cornwells Heights that you were thinking of in your answer to me, while I had the exit ramp from the big lot that leads directly to I-95 or Woodhaven (which is also PA 63).

I've never used Cornwells Heights station, so I don't have any experience with its parking lot access. All I know is what I can see when going by on the train or I95 or Woodhaven Rd, or what you try to teach me here.
It sure seems to me that the only access is from Station Ave, the street to the north of the station which intersects US13, Woodhaven Rd ramp to I95 north, and from I95 south. I don't see any access from I95 north.
It also seems to me that the only exits from the parking lot are to Station Ave, Woodhaven Rd, and I95 north. I don't see any exit to I95 south.

There are two ways to access the station.

1) Off of Station Ave. Two lots. A small paid lot on the outbound side, and the big one on the inbound side.
2) The big lot is also accessible from the Woodhaven Road / I-95 ramps.

When I used the station, the small paid lot was quite sought after, because you could hop in your car and be gone. The shuttle bus would have to make two left turns on the semi-busy Station Ave. A shame there was never a pedestrian bridge built there.

One serious deficiency to Cornwells Heights is that from I-95 or Woodhaven, a driver can only access the station from Woodhaven Eastbound, or I-95 Southbound. Northbound and Westbound commuters must exit to Bristol Road, effectively making access to the station difficult for anyone south of Woodhaven road.

gardendance wrote:It's possible this will get us some new train riders, who will take the bus one way and use the train on the other leg of their trip.

That assumes that these commuters will be willing to endure a bus ride for 1/2 of their commute. If the intent is to use the bus as a pilot, which there is no indication of, why would you ask someone if they like filet mignon, and give them a White Castle at filet mignon prices?

Don't forget there's a fancy new parking garage right across from 30th Street station, plus a parking garage at the Cirra Centre itself. It will be interesting to see how much of an increase there is in utilization of these parking facilities vs. ridership on the Trenton line bus-titute once the IRS move is complete. If we had real transit planners at the various bureaucratic agencies, they will have their eye on the ball to see how much of a success or failure this new bus line is by looking at transit use and non-use as a result of this move.

I wonder how the railroad unions feel about the Trenton line train substitute?

I'm wondering how this discussion got to 2 pages when this discussion is about a bus line and has nothing to do with the railroad. It leaves from Cornwells and goes to 30th street both of which are rail stations but Is the extent of it. The moderator is pretty quick to lock up pointless threads that have to do with buses before so I'm shocked to see this still going. Call me a purist but this page is called RAILROAD.net not BUS.net

Agreed Budd, but the relevance here is why its a bus and not a train? Is this an attempt at transititzation of the railroad? Is this stealing work from the BLET/UTU? Are there enviornmental issues here where the train would provide net reduced emissions over the bus (and is SEPTA following the law with regards to their enabling legislation?)? Are there economic issues where the bus will drain more funding from the operating budget than the train? And are there ridership issues where the train could attract more early morning/late night riders than a bus?

There's plenty to talk about as how this bus route relates to the railroad line which it parallels. Username2 did a good thing in bringing this to our attention. I hope the moderators will continue to excersize good judgement and allow this thread to continue its course.

I had kind of a snarky post here, but decided to delete it.

This is a lot of silliness - the question about whether this represents an attempt to "transitize the railroad", for example? Really? I mean, what are you thinking - that this is the first step in SEPTA's evil plan to replace the Railroad Division with waves of buses? Silly.

The second silliness is whether this is "stealing work" from the BLE and UTU. There is nothing in any labor contract that says that a certain level of service must be maintained, or a certain number of trains operated, or a certain percentage of trains operated versus buses. And why *would* you want that? The agency should be able to use the resources it believes are most efficient for the demand. Right now, it's a bus. Could very well be a train in the future, but it'll depend a lot on demand. It could very well be that it's simply more efficient, from a crew and equipment standpoint, to run the bus right now. Unless these mythical Trenton Line trains can be efficiently crewed and equipped without creating an imbalance (which might require an extra crew that then has nothing else to do), that could very well be the case - simple efficiency for the anticipated demand.

I certainly don't mind some idle speculation (it's one of the reasons I keep coming back here), but IMHO this stuff gets truly off the wall sometimes.

I'll just point out that I think the markets for these routes are entirely different. This new routewill reach cornwells in 20 minutes, the el express will still take 34 minutes just to get to frankford. I'd wager a lot of people will be pass riders anyway, but I might take this route if I lived there and needed to catch an early morning Amtrak train south or west. the el express was needed with or without the IRS, nite owl buses are often crowded and painfully slow. It's sad they are only going halfway and not keeping the expresses for the weekend. it cuts the travel time from 5th and market from 34 minutes to 19 minutes.

Suburban Station wrote: the el express was needed with or without the IRS, nite owl buses are often crowded and painfully slow. It's sad they are only going halfway and not keeping the expresses for the weekend. it cuts the travel time from 5th and market from 34 minutes to 19 minutes.

Again, why not just run the trains? Did SEPTA consider that the 78 bus will only be accessible to people who own cars? If SEPTA ran the train, more people could ride and utilize the other existing stops along the Trenton line instead of limiting the market to people who are willing to drive to Cornwells Heights, pay the $6 fare, and ride the bus.

Since the El shuttle runs at capacity and is too slow, why not run the trains? Why is SEPTA adding more buses to the road instead of running the El as was intended? How many more buses are we adding to the mix to deal with capacity problems and service complaints instead of fixing the entire mess by running the El later, or just keeping it open 24 hours a day?

jfrey40535 wrote: Again, why not just run the trains? Did SEPTA consider that the 78 bus will only be accessible to people who own cars? If SEPTA ran the train, more people could ride and utilize the other existing stops along the Trenton line instead of limiting the market to people who are willing to drive to Cornwells Heights, pay the $6 fare, and ride the bus.

perhaps they don't have the equipment or it's a way to test ridership. this one makes more sense than the nite owl. on the whole though, it appears that SEPTA isn't really trying to serve customers, but perhaps contracting a service for the IRS. why IRS employees with cars would need to ride SEPTA when they just built a gigantic garage I don't know.

jfrey40535 wrote: Since the El shuttle runs at capacity and is too slow, why not run the trains? Why is SEPTA adding more buses to the road instead of running the El as was intended? How many more buses are we adding to the mix to deal with capacity problems and service complaints instead of fixing the entire mess by running the El later, or just keeping it open 24 hours a day?

I don't think they need 24 hours and i'd bet the el shuttle is only that packed on certain days (I use(d) it mostly on weekends). while ultimately I'd like to see later el service, I think this is a good idea.

Suburban Station wrote:

jfrey40535 wrote: Since the El shuttle runs at capacity and is too slow, why not run the trains? Why is SEPTA adding more buses to the road instead of running the El as was intended? How many more buses are we adding to the mix to deal with capacity problems and service complaints instead of fixing the entire mess by running the El later, or just keeping it open 24 hours a day?

I don't think they need 24 hours and i'd bet the el shuttle is only that packed on certain days (I use(d) it mostly on weekends). while ultimately I'd like to see later el service, I think this is a good idea.

I want to clarify that the 78 has no relation to the MFL...the OWL Express does. From my observations, and apparently from SEPTA's as well, while the first hour or two (weeknights that aren't Friday) are rather full, the 40 foot buses end up handling the passengers reasonably well afterwards on both the BSL and the MFL OWLs. Besides, I'd rather have a bus every 10 to 15 minutes than a train every 20 to 30 minutes. At that time of night (at least on Broad Street) the travel times are similar to the train and you don't have to stop at every station.

Remembering "World's Toughest Fixes" and understanding NYC's complications with doing maintenance with the trains running all of the time, it's not too bad for the system to be down for a few hours each night. Perhaps they could stand to run trains a little later on Friday and Saturday nights (like with WMATA's Metrorail) but otherwise, it's okay.

Tritransit Area wrote:I want to clarify that the 78 has no relation to the MFL...the OWL Express does. From my observations, and apparently from SEPTA's as well, while the first hour or two (weeknights that aren't Friday) are rather full, the 40 foot buses end up handling the passengers reasonably well afterwards on both the BSL and the MFL OWLs. Besides, I'd rather have a bus every 10 to 15 minutes than a train every 20 to 30 minutes. At that time of night (at least on Broad Street) the travel times are similar to the train and you don't have to stop at every station.
Remembering "World's Toughest Fixes" and understanding NYC's complications with doing maintenance with the trains running all of the time, it's not too bad for the system to be down for a few hours each night. Perhaps they could stand to run trains a little later on Friday and Saturday nights (like with WMATA's Metrorail) but otherwise, it's okay.

I agree with the statement in bold. the underlined statement less so. While Broad St Owl travel times aren't terrible there is one major exception, the time consuming double loop around city hall. it takes at least twice as long for me to get home from, say, snyder on the owl than it does on the subway. even the C bus is faster (no loop d loop). second, the same doesn't apply to the el where front and kensington ave are MUCH slower. it's painful really, and it you have a transfer it's awful. the express is a huge improvement in travel times...so would rail service. it's worth noting that WMATA starts service later in the mornings on weekends. certainly SEPTA could do the same here.

jb9152 wrote: is whether this is "stealing work" from the BLE and UTU.

I don't think any of the posts said definitely that they thought the bus was stealing rail jobs, I think the posters phrased them as questions, although the way I interpreted it was that the posters wanted us to think that yes, the bus is stealing rail jobs.
However since there's no existing train, and I'd wager has not been an historical train, that the bus replaces, I don't feel there's any reasonable argument to say that the bus steals rail jobs.
And as I mentioned before, since the bus schedule's set up to allow only a one-way ride in a normal work shift, round trip passengers will probably need to ride the train on the other half of their ride.

gardendance wrote:

jb9152 wrote: is whether this is "stealing work" from the BLE and UTU.

I don't think any of the posts said definitely that they thought the bus was stealing rail jobs, I think the posters phrased them as questions, although the way I interpreted it was that the posters wanted us to think that yes, the bus is stealing rail jobs.

No - read back through the thread a little more closely. One of the posters posed the question, "Is this stealing work from the BLET/UTU?" So, yes - someone actually suggested that SEPTA initiating a new bus service is "stealing" jobs, as if there's a labor agreement in place that would ever memorialize that in writing.