Railroad Fare Collection

Silverliner II wrote:So reducing crew consists for SEPTA is still not something that can happen anytime soon.

Correct, and there are other reasons too. But this fare collection system more or less locks them into crews handling cash and validating zone fares for the next 15-20 years.

Matthew Mitchell wrote:

Silverliner II wrote:So reducing crew consists for SEPTA is still not something that can happen anytime soon.

Correct, and there are other reasons too. But this fare collection system more or less locks them into crews handling cash and validating zone fares for the next 15-20 years.

Turnstiles downtown... ugh. If they go with a "tap-in, tap-out" system for the smart cards, they're not really needed. The PRESTO system used by GO doesn't require them. And as for the fear of vandalism of ticket vending machines at outlying stations, I just call that unwillingness by SEPTA to provide security for them, whether it be by closed-circuit cameras or other means. Considering that even the most outlying Metro-North, LIRR, and NJ Transit stations have ticket machines, I just don't buy the vandalism argument...

Silverliner II wrote:Turnstiles downtown... ugh.

Start calling your mayor or county commissioners and educate them, or else you're gonna be stuck with them the next twenty years.

Silverliner II wrote:

Matthew Mitchell wrote:

Silverliner II wrote:So reducing crew consists for SEPTA is still not something that can happen anytime soon.

Correct, and there are other reasons too. But this fare collection system more or less locks them into crews handling cash and validating zone fares for the next 15-20 years.

Turnstiles downtown... ugh. If they go with a "tap-in, tap-out" system for the smart cards, they're not really needed. The PRESTO system used by GO doesn't require them. And as for the fear of vandalism of ticket vending machines at outlying stations, I just call that unwillingness by SEPTA to provide security for them, whether it be by closed-circuit cameras or other means. Considering that even the most outlying Metro-North, LIRR, and NJ Transit stations have ticket machines, I just don't buy the vandalism argument...

I don't buy it either. NJT now has nearly all of their stations with at least one TVM, with some in less than desirable neighborhoods. They even have a much more dispersed system, running up to 95 miles away from Hoboken, and NJT and MNR are still able to handle it.

So, the question becomes in my mind (actually, I've had it all along), is, if SEPTA intends to keep conductors doing fare collection duties, why not just install TVMs like NJT, MNR and LIRR and be done with it? Faregates can work, when you build a station with that in mind, like Secaucus Junction. Shoehorning gates in to existing structures is going to look ugly and impede foot traffic flow.

alewifebp wrote:So, the question becomes in my mind (actually, I've had it all along), is, if SEPTA intends to keep conductors doing fare collection duties, why not just install TVMs like NJT, MNR and LIRR and be done with it?

Because SEPTA is completely fixated on using turnstiles to keep people from riding for free when their ticket isn't punched, and they can't afford both turnstiles and TVMs.

Faregates can work, when you build a station with that in mind, like Secaucus Junction. Shoehorning gates in to existing structures is going to look ugly and impede foot traffic flow.

Well, you can see the concept plan for the turnstile installation in the attachments here: http://planphilly.com/yo-regional-rail- ... s-are-wind and make up your own mind. The plan and analysis was done to address concerns we and others raised about the barriers creating a safety hazard, particularly at 30th Street. We've now OK with them from a safety perspective, but they'd still be a significant inconvenience for riders, especially at Suburban Station and 30th Street.

Hmmm... looking at the drawings for University City, I see the ticket office is inside the paid area. Now how is somebody coming in cold off the street supposed to be able to purchase a ticket?

Wait... just saw the squares denoting the TVM's outside the gates. Well, that kind of gives them a reason to eliminate the agent there now.....

http://planphilly.com/smart-card-workin ... ction-plan

The group voted 11-1 in favor of continuing with two-way fares under the new payment system. Riders would have to tag in and out at the beginning and end of each trip. That could be accomplished at turnstiles to be installed at the five Center City stations, validating machines to be installed at many outlying stations or by a conductor.

And it rejected a proposal put forward by the Delaware Valley Association of Rail Passengers that would have installed ticket vending machines at every station similar to New Jersey Transit. The working group instead supported a proposal to limit vending machine installation to Center City stations.

Matthew Mitchell wrote:

alewifebp wrote:So, the question becomes in my mind (actually, I've had it all along), is, if SEPTA intends to keep conductors doing fare collection duties, why not just install TVMs like NJT, MNR and LIRR and be done with it?

Because SEPTA is completely fixated on using turnstiles to keep people from riding for free when their ticket isn't punched, and they can't afford both turnstiles and TVMs.

Faregates can work, when you build a station with that in mind, like Secaucus Junction. Shoehorning gates in to existing structures is going to look ugly and impede foot traffic flow.

Well, you can see the concept plan for the turnstile installation in the attachments here: http://planphilly.com/yo-regional-rail- ... s-are-wind and make up your own mind. The plan and analysis was done to address concerns we and others raised about the barriers creating a safety hazard, particularly at 30th Street. We've now OK with them from a safety perspective, but they'd still be a significant inconvenience for riders, especially at Suburban Station and 30th Street.

Based on those renderings, that is going to be horrible for foot traffic at 30th. The corridor is tight as it is. With gates and any queued lines, it will be a mess.

I also took that survey, and I found it funny how loaded the questions were. Basically saying we've already made up our minds, but will you eventually get used to it? And since people will, they basically have hard data that tells them what they want to hear. What's in the water at 1234?

SEPTA would be wise to consider the fact that the METRA Electric division tried to implement this foolishness, but eventually ripped all the faregates out due to cost and complexity of trying to accommodate both on board purchase and non-gate equipped stations.

SEPTA just put an NPT survey on their website: https://www.surveymonkey.com/s/2LCWRPW

They also put up a website about NPT in general: http://septa.org/fares/npt/index.html
On the website, they have a list of recommendations made by the Fare Policy Advisory Group. Their recommendations were to keep 2-way fare collection, make the furthest zone the "default zone" and to put fare gates in Center City Stations. As DVARP was a part of this group, I would like to hear why the CCP fare gate system was determined by the entire group to be the "better" system.

I decided to bump the thread after reading Leaving Early. Does anyone know if there's a provision in SEPTA's subway-turnstile scheme to cover a situation like Steve faced if the next train doesn't arrive for a significant amount of time? What happens if a weekend or evening rider scoots through the turnstile only to see the train leave while they're halfway across the platform? Will the smart cards be smart enough to let someone cancel their purchase, or will they have to choose between sitting on a bench for an hour instead of heading to Starbucks or possibly, in SEPTA-speak, seeking other means of transportation?

I don't know if this is a scenario worth worrying about (i.e. just be on time!) but it does seem that occasional and off-hours commuters could again be the forgotten stepchildren.

Another fantastic point. On rapid transit systems if you miss your train at worst you're looking at a 30 or so minute wait until the next one (and that's overnight on a Sunday), but on SEPTA that wait will probably be on the order of an hour for all times outside the peak. If this another stealth fare increase where SEPTA begins to tag people with a CC zone fare every time they miss their train by a few minutes then choose to transfer to a different mode of transportation or get something to eat while passing the time? Just when you think they couldn't go any lower :-\

alewifebp wrote:Faregates can work, when you build a station with that in mind, like Secaucus Junction.

It took awhile for the Secaucus fare gates to not be really inconvenient. http://www.teterboro-online.com/trans/r ... /nav.shtml shows approximately where the fare gates used to be. If your arrival and departure trains are both on the upper level, you can't get through the fare gates - unless you buzz the intercom and ask an attendant to walk over and let you through. See where the A/B/2/3 fare gates used to be just east of the central area of the station? If you had a layover and wanted to access the waiting/rest room/retail area, you had to buzz an attendant, who'd have to spend a minute or two walking over to let you through. They were never happy about this.

But the real issue was when the train that was supposed to arrive on the A/B platform suddenly came on the 3 platform: you had about a minute to run upstairs, get an attendant to walk over and let you through the A/B/2 fare gate, and run down to the 3 platform.

A few years ago they gave up on the expected attached office building and removed all the fare gates except for those protecting the waiting/rest room/retail/Hoboken line area. You still need to get an attendant to let you through if you want to sit in the main waiting area or eat or pee, but there's usually one nearby.

[There is a pair of small restrooms at the west end of the station that are outside the fare gates, but few people know about them.]

So that's what needs to be addressed by any CC fare gate implementation. If you miss your train, or the train is rescheduled to arrive on another platform, or you need to go to the rest room, there needs to be a way for you to do this quickly and without incurring an extra fare.

I liked the part of the survey where they asked if you think having a paid fare area would make people feel safer. Dear SEPTA: having to pay a few dollars to get access to a platform is no impediment at all to panhandlers and assaulters. I've come into contact with both on the El. I don't think keeping some sleepy homeless person off of the RRD platforms is adequate justification for putting up fare gates.

Reason Number 653 on why faregates at the Center City stations are not needed:
Since you would be using whatever fare instrument to tap in/tap out at Center City anyway, then just have the tap machines placed in various locations within the stations and mark off the "Paid Fare" zones with yellow striping and signage as is done on other systems. The end result would be the same, since you would have to tap in/out at whatever station you are getting off at.

To cover cases where a train is delayed or cancelled and you wish to use an alternative, or if you change your mind about taking a journey, SEPTA can take another lesson from the PRESTO setup in Toronto and have an option on the tap machines to cancel or reverse a fare. That would work well with credit card or stored-value card options; of course Trailpass and Transpass riders would not have that issue.

In any event, in my opinion, I find the turnstiles are something that is not needed for the CCP stations, period. They are not a requirement for what SEPTA wants. And what they really need are ticket machines at all the suburban stations, period. The new fare technology does not address that.

*steps off my soapbox*