Railroad Fare Collection

Let's keep all discussion pertaining to the NPT (New Payment Technology) and the Railroad Division in here.

Query:

SEPTA appears to be adverse to TVMs on the railroad, but according to the NPT Technical Specification which can be downloaded from PlanPhilly.com, "Fare Vending Devices", or FVDs, will be deployed to all subway, and subway surface stations, as well as select bus loops and bus stops of significant volume (KOP transit center for example).

Will such "FVDs" be deployed to regional rail stations, and if so how more/less complex are they compared to a standard ticket machine?

If the purpose of SmartMedia was to eliminate TVMs, what is the savings by going with FVDs instead if it also requires handheld readers, tag out stations and manual checks at the same time, plus cash fares still being accepted on trains. OR, are no FVDs being deployed to the RRD which is why cash is still being accepted on the trains? (I have not read that far into the NPT T.S. yet)

Side note: it appears turnstiles are also going up at 19th & 22nd on S/S, and 69th & NTC on the NHSL.

For TVMs...I'd wonder if they would have to upload the potential fare combinations for each station, including "weekday" vs "evening and weekend fares", to each TVM before it can vend a ticket. Maybe that's complicated as opposed to a simple device to add money to a card, buy a card, or upload a weekly pass?

Thanks for the info about 19th and 22nd, and even better 69th and NTC. I never even heard about these proposals despite being involved with the process since they invited people outside of the organization to comment about it about two years ago. I wonder if zones will be eliminated on the NHSL. I also wonder if fareboxes will be removed from the N5s. Who will supervise these faregates (as well as the ones at 19th and 22nd). I also wonder, which would make me smile, if they are going to do something like Staten Island Railway, with two way fare payment at 69th Street and Norristown, but free rides everywhere else.

If they install these gates at Norristown, I hope they have a better track record than that escalator that works from time to time. I would DEFINITELY be less than thrilled if I missed my hourly/bi-hourly connection because of a foul up with the gates.

This is yet another example of how the spotlight always beams on the Regional Rail while the other services are changed like crazy just about overnight with little to no notice unbeknownst to the riders that choose to ride them.

Tritransit Area wrote:For TVMs...I'd wonder if they would have to upload the potential fare combinations for each station, including "weekday" vs "evening and weekend fares", to each TVM before it can vend a ticket. Maybe that's complicated as opposed to a simple device to add money to a card, buy a card, or upload a weekly pass?

I don't think so, though I'm sure SEPTA can create a strawman by assuming complications like you describe. It's pretty easy to program a machine to offer one ticket on the next train to Philadelphia as the default (press one button and swipe your card) option. With two-way communication, it's even possible to make it a smart machine that knows whether the next train is peak or off-peak.

I wonder if zones will be eliminated on the NHSL. I also wonder if fareboxes will be removed from the N5s. Who will supervise these faregates (as well as the ones at 19th and 22nd). I also wonder, which would make me smile, if they are going to do something like Staten Island Railway, with two way fare payment at 69th Street and Norristown, but free rides everywhere else.

That is kind of puzzling. I was aware of the plan for turnstiles at 69th and NTC, but had assumed they would be just for entry, and that they would be using the fareboxes for passengers boarding anywhere else. That avoids the free ride loss of revenue, but makes it harder to charge zone fares.

This is yet another example of how the spotlight always beams on the Regional Rail while the other services are changed like crazy just about overnight with little to no notice unbeknownst to the riders that choose to ride them.

Well that's because the great majority of transit riders aren't going to have much change in how their fares are paid. They'll be swiping a card instead of dropping a token or handing over a transfer, but they'll still be paying at fareboxes when boarding surface vehicles and at turnstiles when entering subway/elevated stations. The RRD changes are much more dramatic, much more of an inconvenience for riders, and a much greater revenue risk for SEPTA.

How many turnstiles are going to be installed at Market East? Suburban? 30th Street?

jfrey40535 wrote:How many turnstiles are going to be installed at Market East? Suburban? 30th Street?

At the presentation last week, they had a floor plan layout of the Suburban Station concourse. To be honest, I had no idea what any of it meant.

jfrey40535 wrote:How many turnstiles are going to be installed at Market East? Suburban? 30th Street?

It's in the attachments from one of Anthony Campisi's stories last summer, but subject to change. The gist of it at Market East and Suburban is to enclose the areas around the tops of the stairways at concourse level, far enough so there's space for people to queue after they get off the escalator. The paid area may include multiple stairways, which is necessary for transfer purposes.

At 30th Street, the turnstiles for the side with escalators would be down on concourse level, and the turnstiles for the side with the elevators would be up at platform level.

Each fareline will include at least one ADA-compliant faregate as well as the old-fashioned three-arm turnstiles.

Does anyone know the actual turnstile count?

Can anyone provide an example of a scheduled rail line that has successfully used turnstiles? When I say scheduled, I mean scheduled in the eyes of the user, not the agency: subways with 5-10 minute headways wouldn't count. What sort of volumes have they handled at peak times with turnstiles?

John Scott wrote:Does anyone know the actual turnstile count?

It's in one of the attachments to the Plan Philly article. The architectural consultants did calculate the number of turnstiles needed to handle projected ridership, but I have not independently verified the numbers.

http://planphilly.com/yo-regional-rail- ... s-are-wind
I think thats the link

zebrasepta wrote:http://planphilly.com/yo-regional-rail- ... s-are-wind
I think thats the link

The RRD gating plans have seen some minor modifications since the summer. My understanding is that the gate counts are under review and its relatively easy to add move or remove gates once implemented. Naturally, SEPTA wants to ensure adequate passenger flows under all but "Live Aid" conditions.

zebrasepta wrote:http://planphilly.com/yo-regional-rail- ... s-are-wind
I think thats the link

E.12_RRD_Center_City_Station_Fare_Lines.pdf is the appended file with that article which has proposed gate layouts for the 3 CC stations plus University City and Temple.

Suburban Station is going to wind up looking like Graterford, with lots of gates and fencing interrupting the sight lines. The volume of passengers likely boosts the needs for multiple gates.

30th street and Market east seem more like subway stations, but I guess that goes with the territory. I hope SEPTA decides to gold-plate their barrier solutions at these stations. Having something aesthetically inoffensive would be worth every penny if we are going to be stuck with all this access control for the duration.

Chtorr00 wrote:I hope SEPTA decides to gold-plate their barrier solutions at these stations. Having something aesthetically inoffensive would be worth every penny if we are going to be stuck with all this access control for the duration.

Nope. They're gonna cheap out and use three-arm turnstiles, though the ADA gates will use a more modern technology.

I can live with three arm turnstiles, they are relatively low to the ground and pretty standard in the system already.

It's the fencing required between the turnstiles that gives me pause. If they go with off-the-shelf bars or wire mesh it could get ugly quickly.

Chtorr00 wrote:I can live with three arm turnstiles, they are relatively low to the ground and pretty standard in the system already.

It's the fencing required between the turnstiles that gives me pause. If they go with off-the-shelf bars or wire mesh it could get ugly quickly.

I was curious about that too. I was assured that the Center City stations will have fencing based upon the existing station design elements. 30th and/or Suburban will also have the PRR keystone logo included in the design.


--

On another note, due to the already limited space at 30th Street, why not just make the ENTIRE upper level a paid area? Why bother starting at the staircase, when you can make the entire upper lobby a paid zone?