Pullman Co Comet 1 cars.

As I understand it, Septas AEM7s/ALP44 are the issue.....(if its an issue). NJT uses non-self Lapping brake stands on its locos and cab cars/push pulls (even the newest Multilevels) with a separate position for EP Hold, as well as set up for direct release. AFAIK, Septas locos are self lapping brakes and don't have that EP hold position and use graduated release. Not a big deal, but with the direct release of the Comets, once you go to release you do loose everything pretty much immediately. Its not the end of the world, just a different type of running for the engineer. (It happens with NJT's equipment if there is a failure of the EP brake system) I don't quite understand the issue Amtrak has it with, but whatever.

As a side note, the Comet 1s were never restricted form Amtrak while in NJT service. I guess because they cooperated with the NJT locos, and everything was direct release.

As a side note, the brake stand on the Comet 1s is the PS68 brake stand, which i believe is the exact same brake stand on the Silverliners. I also thought there was a switch on the Control Valve that allowed the cars to go from direct to graduated release (and vice versa), but maybe im thinking of another model car and my Comet 1 stuff from choochooU is buried in the attic...

Jtgshu wrote:As I understand it, Septas AEM7s/ALP44 are the issue.....(if its an issue). NJT uses non-self Lapping brake stands on its locos and cab cars/push pulls (even the newest Multilevels) with a separate position for EP Hold, as well as set up for direct release. AFAIK, Septas locos are self lapping brakes and don't have that EP hold position and use graduated release. Not a big deal, but with the direct release of the Comets, once you go to release you do loose everything pretty much immediately. Its not the end of the world, just a different type of running for the engineer. (It happens with NJT's equipment if there is a failure of the EP brake system) I don't quite understand the issue Amtrak has it with, but whatever.

As a side note, the Comet 1s were never restricted form Amtrak while in NJT service. I guess because they cooperated with the NJT locos, and everything was direct release.

As a side note, the brake stand on the Comet 1s is the PS68 brake stand, which i believe is the exact same brake stand on the Silverliners. I also thought there was a switch on the Control Valve that allowed the cars to go from direct to graduated release (and vice versa), but maybe im thinking of another model car and my Comet 1 stuff from choochooU is buried in the attic...

Yeah, the Silverliner IV's have that PS68, I think. The Silverliner II's and III's (along with the Bomber cab cars) have the 26L stands.

The Comets came with a PS-1 brake valve, the predecessor to the PS-68-C on SL-IV cars. The Bombers use a 26-C brake valve on a 26L system.
Sorry for the split hairs or picked nits!

After 2304 died enroute to WT tonight, the Comets & 2308 are spending the night in WT and coming down in the morning. The bombers and 2304 were towed back to Frazer with 60.

nomis wrote:After 2304 died enroute to WT tonight, the Comets & 2308 are spending the night in WT and coming down in the morning. The bombers and 2304 were towed back to Frazer with 60.

And that train promptly died just short of Langhorne when some kind of air leak on the already dead AEM7 caused an issue with the brakes. Due to being on the crossing circuit for Bellevue Avenue, SEPTA and CSX trains had to stop and flag the crossing until 60 was able to get going again.

Likely the Comets will be on 6325 on Wednesday morning.

Silverliner II wrote:

nomis wrote:After 2304 died enroute to WT tonight, the Comets & 2308 are spending the night in WT and coming down in the morning. The bombers and 2304 were towed back to Frazer with 60.

And that train promptly died just short of Langhorne when some kind of air leak on the already dead AEM7 caused an issue with the brakes. Due to being on the crossing circuit for Bellevue Avenue, SEPTA and CSX trains had to stop and flag the crossing until 60 was able to get going again.

Likely the Comets will be on 6325 on Wednesday morning.

Where did the express with the bombers (6378) break down? At about 5:47, the Alvinator was saying that it was running 15-20 minutes late. It had not yet made it to Bethayres, where it was due at 5:44. At 6:05, TrainView had it at 17 minutes late, which would have put it past its time at Bethayres. Did 6378 limp all the way from where it "died" to West Trenton (or at least to some point past Langhorne)?

It was having issues coming up from CCP, dont know where the problem(engine shut down & auto dropping of pans) first started but I specifically remember at trevose neshaminy and langhorne that the engine died. They setoff all passengers at langhorne to 380 since it could get around the bombers and run up Tr 1 (inside). The crew was to dh up from there to WT, put the comets inn the yard for the night, then bring the bombers down to Frazer. The Bombers died just before Woodbourne, on the crossing circuit. The livened it up, took it west off the circuit and tied it up until 60 can get to it. The crew got picked up on (4?)384 and taken to WT to do their comet work & dh home to Roberts. It's parked location screwed with the crossing at Woodbourne Rd for over an hour during the end of rush hour.

Comets and 2308 did not deadhead to WT this morning. They were sitting in Roberts Yard.

nomis wrote:It's parked location screwed with the crossing at Woodbourne Rd for over an hour during the end of rush hour.

And when it died with 60 just east of Bellevue Avenue on THAT crossing circuit, it fouled up that crossing for a while. I was running Q301 through and we had to stop and flag the crossing. An eastbound set of MU's kept the crossing blocked when they saw us coming so we only had to light up one side of the crossing. They were still pounding away on the toaster when I got out of radio range around Lawndale, so they were probably there for another hour or more....

Amtrak's issue with the Comet 1's being set in direct release is simple. If you have your brakes set when running a locomotive that isnt set up for direct release, and if your pressure maintaining feature happens to kick in or if you happen to just bump the automatic brake while the brakes are set, guess what happens? An increase in brake pipe pressure means the brakes relase and thats something you dont need happening when slowing for a restriction,getting up close to other equipment ,bumperor even a station stop. If a locomotive is set up for direct release, even if you move your handle towards release, the brakes WONT release until the handle is actually in release. This is partially the reason why Amtrak will be leasing NJT Alp44's for work train service because the units are already set up for direct relase. An AEM7 isnt, and the HHP's(which can run in direct release) are well.......Not so reliable. The alp44's are needed for work train service not because we dont have enough diesel power, but because they will be needed to shuttle long work trains thru the tunnels in NYC to send things up the Hell Gate line for work.

Comets did not run on 6374 today. Instead, had a SEPTA Bomber set. Are the Comets and ALP okay?

BuddSilverliner269 wrote:Amtrak's issue with the Comet 1's being set in direct release is simple. If you have your brakes set when running a locomotive that isnt set up for direct release, and if your pressure maintaining feature happens to kick in or if you happen to just bump the automatic brake while the brakes are set, guess what happens? An increase in brake pipe pressure means the brakes relase and thats something you dont need happening when slowing for a restriction,getting up close to other equipment ,bumperor even a station stop. If a locomotive is set up for direct release, even if you move your handle towards release, the brakes WONT release until the handle is actually in release. This is partially the reason why Amtrak will be leasing NJT Alp44's for work train service because the units are already set up for direct relase. An AEM7 isnt, and the HHP's(which can run in direct release) are well.......Not so reliable. The alp44's are needed for work train service not because we dont have enough diesel power, but because they will be needed to shuttle long work trains thru the tunnels in NYC to send things up the Hell Gate line for work.

Budd, im a little confused by this - maybe because im not used to running with graduated release, (and we only touched on it lightly in choochoou) but everything you mentioned can happen in direct release as well. You bump the handle to release, and the brake release. the only time they don't is when EP (electro-pneumatic brakes) are energized. We (NJT) have specific trainhanding rules that EP brakes are NOT to be relied upon when coming up to a stop signal, bumping block, restriction, etc basically any place where if the EP failed, and the brakes released, you could be in BIG trouble. With the "older style" non-self lapping brake on NJT (and the Septa Comet 1s) if the EP is not energized, when you go to HOLD position, the brakes release just as if you were in release. Running in direct release without EP brakes isn't that big of a deal, it happens occasionally when there is a failure and it has to be cut out, just requires a little more careful handing of the brakes and you do have to watch your air, much more so than when EP is energized. However, you can run the same speeds, use the same braking points, do everything the same, just the stop at the end might be a lil more sudden and not smoothed out as much. Making specific, exact spots is NOT fun, like low leveling at the litlte platforms, but its doable, well all depending of course on the engineers skill level

I don't understand however, how Septa is able to get around not having the EP in use. I know its a secondary braking feature, but at the same time, its an appliance that the loco (well, cab car) has and shouldn't it be required to work because it has it? Or was the EP system disabled by Septa for this very reason?

R3 Passenger wrote:Comets did not run on 6374 today. Instead, had a SEPTA Bomber set. Are the Comets and ALP okay?

Maybe SEPTA took them OOS???

blockline4180 wrote:

R3 Passenger wrote:Comets did not run on 6374 today. Instead, had a SEPTA Bomber set. Are the Comets and ALP okay?

Maybe SEPTA took them OOS???

Maybe the ALP woke up dead. Funny thing is that when it was new, for the first few years, it was the hangar queen of the fleet. Not so much because it had problems, but SEPTA used to just treat it as a backup unit...

Jt, I run both graduated and direct release and I can tell you that even when you bump the brake handle while running in direct release they don't release. They can and only release while in release. Anything I have ever touched at amtrak or the work locomotives at septa are this way. You can only get an accidental release of the brakes is when the controlling locomotive is graduated. What njt equipment does or doesn't do is beyond why it does what it does.also septas aem7 s don't have the EP brake only rhe alp44 and they can't always guarantee that locomotive will be running everyday.