Port Jervis Line out indefinitely

blockline4180 wrote:

amm in ny wrote:

Otto Vondrak wrote:First, they have to clean up what is there....

I would think they also need to check the entire line for problems, including those that might not be obvious. (E.g., bridges that look fine but are about to go.) And assess what is usable and what isn't, what needs to be repaired vs. replaced vs. can be used as is.

Or has this already been done?

No, nothing has been cleaned up! The saplings are still sitting across the gauge as we speak!

By "this" I meant "check the entire line for problems."

While I have no particular expertise in rebuilding rail lines, normally, for a big job, you like to nail down as closely as possible exactly what needs doing before you sign the contracts, since contract changes are a known budget and deadline killer.

BTW, I don't know why some folks are getting obsessed with the saplings on the line. Until the washouts and other more serious problems are fixed, who cares about a few saplings? If they're still there after the work crews are done, then you'll have good reason to complain.

While we are all about rushing, I have to actually agree with Metro North on this one. We just suffered a pretty catastrophic storm that did quite a bit of damage throughout the tri-state area. A temporary fix with the notion of perfecting later would only cause another catastrophe if the smallest storm came in.

The other railroads push freight and thus might have better access to the materials needed to render fixes to their tracks. On top of that, they are private entities, who can basically move faster than the government. Metro North, being a government-run entity may not be so lucky and many not be able to move and procure the supplies as fast...even if reconstruction permits are lifted.

While I do agree that it shouldn't take this long for the consultants to render their verdicts appropriately, at the end of the day, Metro North should make sure that the fix is appropriate. Temporary fixes in this situation will just not work.

On a side note, I heard that the MN trains were moved early Wednesday morning over the NYSW. No pics I take it then? Maybe this would be a good test for commuter service (if time is not a true factor..)

SecaucusJunction wrote:Apparently we can now hope for a preliminary report within a week, which will be nearly 3 weeks total after the hurricane hit. The head of Metro North was out looking at the line damage yesterday. I think that if this damage was so catastrophic and worse than anyone has seen before, knocking out the line for so long, he should have been out there first hand the day after the storm to assess. Why he waited nearly 2 weeks is beyond me but whatever. I completely agree that they should get something running and then worry about making it perfect (or close to perfect) afterwords. Metro North needs to be held accountable for every day there is no service and no work being done. Other railroads would have people out there assessing and working 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, until the line work was completed. If only Norfolk Southern had a greater interest in the line, I also think things would start to move along.

Another idea would be to have trains running from Port Jervis to Harriman and then have a bus running to Route 17 or even Secaucus or NY. Making Middletown residents go all the way to Newburgh is greatly time consuming and not good for anyone. It seems as though Metro North did not have a contingency plan in place for a situation like this as they keep changing their minds on how to handle it.

It is not just the daily riders that depend on that line, but the whole Orange County economy as a whole. People who purchased homes in that area at a price that would include a rail commute to the city would be devastated if the line was closed down for good. Orange County also pays into the MTA taxes much more than they ever receive, so it would behoove the MTA to fix the line for these people. No doubt that the line is coming back. I just wish that they would put aside politics and get something done for the common good. Right now, they just come off as very inept.

I don't think there's any possibility service gets "permanently suspended".

One, it's an active freight line, with both NYSW and NS running on it. MNRR leased the line from NS, with an option to buy as of 2006, I think (I don't think they've exercised that option). Now, if it were NS running it and responsible for repairs, yeah, they might petition to abandon. But I would think due to the lease, they would actually want MNRR to repair it.

Two, it is still part of the plan for the TZB replacement, with potential for service to Stewart. Direct service to GCT along this line would make today's ridership look like peanuts.

Three, Chuckie will never let them do it.

Today MN's survey of the line was the lead story in the Rockland edition of the Journal News. It was written by their Rockland transportation reporter, Khurram Saeed, who's a good guy. Here's the link:
http://www.lohud.com/article/20110908/N ... New%20York

MN is certainly being methodical. I don't see any speedy resolution here. After all, MN is a MTA subsidiary. Speed in construction projects is not what they are known for.

But, there is zero chance they will abandon the line.

no trainsets have been moved yet, they were gone try a shuttle test train tommorrow between Port Jervis and harriman,
but yesterdays storms caused more damage near Middletown and one other spot.

Dunno the ridership points/concentrations, but would guess that Harriman/Salisbury would be heavy ridership areas that NYS&W would miss. Also trips on the Suskie would take forever, and I'd guess most would opt to drive or take bus instead.
Let alone the NS reluctance to use it.

CarterB wrote:Dunno the ridership points/concentrations, but would guess that Harriman/Salisbury would be heavy ridership areas that NYS&W would miss. Also trips on the Suskie would take forever, and I'd guess most would opt to drive or take bus instead.
Let alone the NS reluctance to use it.

I believe the entire Hudson Secondary is 10mph right now. It would also take an additional 2+ hours over the NYSW east of Warwick so it is really not feasible to run down that way for commuter trains.

Uzplayer,

I actually think MTA is playing politics here, and they may be looking for more money from the Feds.... However, I don't think the 2nd track is in the plans.

Perhaps I'm wrong.. However, IMHO this line won't be in service until at least January or February the earliest, which in my mind is unacceptable!

railmason357 wrote:People or companies that rush into things to patch have a tendency to keep patching the same reoccurring problem. By looking at things to improve and prevent can be misinterpeted as stalling or looking to abandon.

If Metro-North went in there and just simply put back what was there and two months later there was another devastating flood which wiped out the line again, what would be said then? By reviewing what can be done to prevent, look at what can be done to improve your infrastructure.

People don't want to be inconvienced and will find fault with everything when they don't do their "norm". It isn't like the equipment breaks down or the signal system failed because it wasn't maintained. It was heavy rains and a dam the let go. I don't blame people for not wanting to sit in traffic in a bus, that is why there are trains, so whatever it takes to get it back running, I feel MN should do to do it right, one time!

I don't understand what you are proposing. Short of spending billions of dollars to elevate the line, I don't think there is anything that Metro-North could do that would eliminate the possibility of a future washout in a storm of Irene's magnitude.

I wouldn't doubt they will be looking at lengthening bridges and enlarging culverts that were problematic during this storm. One of the MTA reports they need environmental permits to relocate a waterway that no encroaches upon the railroad right of way. The assessment, design and eventual construction will take time, but better they do it right the first time than to have to do it again a few years from now, or build a temporary 'fix' and have to work around it later.

Also look at the opportunity this has to speed up other work. With a full line closure, no worries for tie replacements, signal work, or bridge work that was already scheduled. Those can no occur during normal hours, no need to keep the line in service or available for service for any passing trains. So keeping the line closed may save some dollars on other projects.

All stations have bus service starting Monday. Buses run as follows:

Port Jervis-Middletown-Beacon
Otisville-Beacon
Campbell Hall-Beacon
Salisbury Mills-Ramsey 17
Harriman-Tuxedo-Sloatsburg-Ramsey 17

I question the wisdom of running dedicated buses for Otisville and Campbell Hall, the two lowest ridership stations in Orange County. They should divert the Port Jervis bus to serve Otisville, at a minimum.

blockline4180 wrote:Off topic, but since Otto had asked a question about the damage sustained by the DL&W in 1955, I'll post a little snippet... So, there you have it... Obviously it was a different time back then. Yes, you had less gov't intervention, but restoration still got done faster with some outside help from different contractors...

Thanks for posting the information about how Lackawanna dealt with the floods of 1955.

So your saying MTA Consultants staring at the damage with hands on hips for days and days is the proper procedure with this before the construction workers can make it in and start the rebuilding process??!?

No one is standing around with their hands on their hips. But careful planning and design is important if you want to build it right and have it last rather than waste money on a temporary fix that will fail during the next weather event. There is no sense in doing it twice when it can be redesigned, improved, and built better than before so it can resist the next weather event rather than succumb to it.

-otto-

SecaucusJunction wrote: I completely agree that they should get something running and then worry about making it perfect (or close to perfect) afterwords.

I do not support any plan that involves spending twice as much so that a temporary fix can be replaced by a permanent one. In my opinion ,that is a colossal waste of time, people, and resources. Even if you were able to cobble together some sort of train service, you'll only delaying the construction of the permanent fix by wasting time on a kludge.

-otto-

JoeG wrote:Then, if permits aren't required, I sure wish they would get started already. Even though some design work is needed, they can certainly start by dumping some rock and dirt in the holes...

So your plan is to "dump some rock and dirt in the holes." Okay. Which holes, where? How will you get the crews and equipment and materials there? How much dirt? How much rock? What kind of rock? How much is enough? What if the subroadbed is completely destroyed, do you just dump rock and dirt on top and hope it will hold? Creating a stable, permanent roadbed for the tracks takes a little more than just filling in holes and hoping for the best.

So okay, say we work on your temporary fix. So then we have to come back in a few weeks, rip out what you did, and then start over with the permanent solution? How much time, money, and resources did that waste?

I think the regular railroad MOW guys would know, at a basic level, how to start the work...

They do. It involves a design process to prevent this from happening again. You also have to realize that railroads are built around drainage. And if you're diverting water away from the train tracks, it's going to go somewhere else... What if that is your backyard? Your business? Your school? You can't just divert water off railroad property and onto your neighbor's. Drainage systems must be designed to protect property and not innundate the surrounding environment. Bridges, culverts, ditches, ponds, catch basins, raceways all take time to be designed, approved, and implemented.

I am be no means an expert in the field, I am not a civil engineer, nor am I a railroader. But I do know that any project that is worth doing has a design process before you begin construction. And if there are environmental concerns to be addressed, they will delay the process. I do not know what issues the railroad is facing right now, but I do not believe they get any benefit from intentionally "stalling" or otherwise sabotaging the project.

-=otto-