Port Jervis Line out indefinitely

blockline4180 wrote:

M&Eman wrote:
PS: SJ, you might get a little more respect on this board if you made your posts a little calmer, less emotional, and more rational instead of the frantic rants they commonly are. NJT, the MTA and other organizations sure aren't perfect and there are certainly faults but as far as working within the constraints of reality go, they do an alright job.

Huh?? Dude, I think SJ has some legitimate questions that need to be answered... I don't think he was being "emotional," as you put it, at all!!

In these so called "press releases" MTA seems to have a few of their "facts" wrong.... There is no need to inspect the 65 miles of the line, because the NYSW could tell you that the line west of CH is now in service with signals working as intended.... If the washouts in Ottisville were so bad like MTA claimed last week, then why were they fixed in 2 days??

Just some questions need to be answered as to why it will take 20+ days for the "consultants" to render their final report!!!!
http://www.recordonline.com/apps/pbcs.d ... 11/-1/NEWS
"The Metropolitan Transportation Authority, Metro-North's parent agency, is fast-tracking repairs."

"Fast tracking repairs"???
LOL,Hardly!

I don't understand some of the comments here... How fast do you want them to move? First, they have to clean up what is there. Next, they have to do engineering to determine how they are going to rebuild the roadbed (and design some flood deterrents as well). In many areas, the roadbed simply does not exist, and must be rebuilt completely. They also have to figure out how to rebuild and replace the signal and communications system. You don't just lay wires and call it a day. Any bridges that were damaged will require repair, or possibly replacement. You don't just walk in and build a bridge. It has to be designed, along with the supports and roadbed. None of this happens overnight. Then contractors need to be hired, put in place. Materials must be ordered and delievred. And all of this needs to be paid for somehow.

(Edited for content by moderator)

-otto-

Otto Vondrak wrote:First, they have to clean up what is there....

I would think they also need to check the entire line for problems, including those that might not be obvious. (E.g., bridges that look fine but are about to go.) And assess what is usable and what isn't, what needs to be repaired vs. replaced vs. can be used as is.

Or has this already been done?

amm in ny wrote:

Otto Vondrak wrote:First, they have to clean up what is there....

I would think they also need to check the entire line for problems, including those that might not be obvious. (E.g., bridges that look fine but are about to go.) And assess what is usable and what isn't, what needs to be repaired vs. replaced vs. can be used as is.

Or has this already been done?

No, nothing has been cleaned up! The saplings are still sitting across the gauge as we speak!

SecaucusJunction wrote:I understand they have massive areas to fill in. My criticism is in the fact that they haven't even started to do anything. Like I said, they didn't even lift one tree off of the tracks in the past 10 days.

I wonder why they don't have crews out cutting trees and clearing debris. Do you think it is because they don't want to? I don't think that is the reason.

Supplies should be in place by now for this work to begin immediately. We know that this is worse than they have seen in the past.

Could it be they don't know what supplies need to be ordered? 30 or 300 tons of ballast? 20 or 10 miles of rail? 200,000 or 20,000 new ties? 10,000 or 300,000 new Pandrol clips? 12 coffee stirrers? I really don't think anything can be ordered until the design and engineering is complete. That would be like buying all the stuff you need to build a house without having the house plans approved yet. Sure, you know you need a toilet, a sink, some pipes, etc... But how many? What size? And from what supplier?

Am I talking nonsense?

-otto-

Metro-North is proceeding with what can only be described as an abundance of caution. Im not going to offer an opinion on that, but certainly there are other approaches which are just as reasonable. Once work begins, it should be a relatively quick process to restore the line to operating condition.

People or companies that rush into things to patch have a tendency to keep patching the same reoccurring problem. By looking at things to improve and prevent can be misinterpeted as stalling or looking to abandon.

If Metro-North went in there and just simply put back what was there and two months later there was another devastating flood which wiped out the line again, what would be said then? By reviewing what can be done to prevent, look at what can be done to improve your infrastructure.

People don't want to be inconvienced and will find fault with everything when they don't do their "norm". It isn't like the equipment breaks down or the signal system failed because it wasn't maintained. It was heavy rains and a dam the let go. I don't blame people for not wanting to sit in traffic in a bus, that is why there are trains, so whatever it takes to get it back running, I feel MN should do to do it right, one time!

The fact is that Metro North is a slow-moving, bureaucratic state agency. Ditto NJT. The Lackawanna was a private company that was in very bad financial shape. It had to get that railroad back as fast as possible or it was bankrupt or maybe out of business. And, of course, this is not 1955. (In one of the early press releases about the damage, I saw the word "Permitting." My heart sank. In 1955 I don't think the word or the concept existed.) And, in 1955 we were the world's largest industrial power. We made stuff and fixed stuff fast. Today we make....derivatives??

Anyway, I wish they were moving faster. It would make my commute easier.

But look at the bright side. While, if this were 1955, the railroad might be fixed already, if it were 1975 there is an excellent chance they would have just abandoned the railroad. (2300 passengers? Just send a few buses up Rt 17....) A lot of railroads, including the Lackawanna Cutoff, were abandoned in the seventies and eighties. Now, there is no talk of that. The railroad will be fixed and improved, even if too slowly for my wishes.

The governor of New York has suspended permitting requirements for emergency repair/recovery work. Metro-North can start work whenever they wish without needing to get permits. See the press release here.

Then, if permits aren't required, I sure wish they would get started already. Even though some design work is needed, they can certainly start by dumping some rock and dirt in the holes...I think the regular railroad MOW guys would know, at a basic level, how to start the work...
But MTA is a public agency. It undoubtedly has some restrictions on how fast it can move even in an emergency. And, sad to say, in the past it has given out plenty of questionable contracts. So, it's probably under some scrutiny. But it is kind of disheartening that they haven't even started dumping some fill in the washouts.

ok where do you puchase 8000 tons+++ or more rip-rap that is local.
How do you transport and dump 8000 tons+++ of rip-rap without flooding local roads
Where do you obtain signal parts that are 45 years absolete ?? how do you find something that may be compatibe ??
(Edited for content by moderator)

The NYSW already delivered some stone to MN at Campbell Hall. There is no part of the signal system that is 45 years old and cant be replaced with modern parts. Metro-North demonstrated that when they completely rebuilt and rewired both CP-Harriman and CP-Central Valley recently. There is also no requirement that there be an operational signal system for passenger trains to run.

Im going to drop out of the discussion now because Ive probably already said more about this subject than I should and I dont want to go any farther.

DutchRailnut wrote:ok where do you puchase 8000 tons+++ or more rip-rap that is local.
How do you transport and dump 8000 tons+++ of rip-rap without flooding local roads
Where do you obtain signal parts that are 45 years absolete ?? how do you find something that may be compatibe ??
yet some rail wanker is obsesed by a little tree that did not get cleared yet ??

Oh I dunno - maybe the railroad could get rip rap delivered by RAIL? Go figure. they could get riprap from California for chrissakes.... If they ordered it immediately it would be here already. Move it as far as they can on rail, dump it and have a bulldozer carry it to the site or load it on a truck for the final stretch to the section they are working on? Just a thought. but hey, im not that kind of engineer, or working for the firm contracted to study the condition of the Tier after the storm, which will deliver the reports in a "fast tracked manner"? Awesome. well its been more than a week already....how they making out?

Signals can be worked on after the track is fixed. DCS rules are a wonderful thing. We aren't talking about a 4 track mainline here with interlockings every mile or anything like that........

Sure seems that the Catskill Mountain RR is making more progress clearing and staring restoration than MN is....

it sure is a great youtube video that MN made though!

Sirsonic wrote:There is no part of the signal system that is 45 years old and cant be replaced with modern parts.

Somewhere earlier in this thread an official was quoted as saying that if the existing system is repaired they will need to hand fabricate parts, there are no compatible parts in existence any longer.

Firstly, I agree that in general everything done by a government agency is about three times too slow and ten times too expensive. However, I don't think that's the case this time. (Or perhaps only partially the case.)

The double tracking project and complete signal replacement, as well as whatever upgrades would be necessary for Stewart service would have undoubtedly resulted in delays far into the future. Off peak service cuts or complete shutdowns probably would have happened, as well as a multitude of slow orders and all that other fun stuff relating to RR construction.

If they simply dump a bunch of fill in the holes, yes, trains will be running. Really slowly and without signals. Even when service finally gets back to where it was it will still be on a roadbed that is susceptible to future washouts, and with a bunch of projects coming up resulting in future delays.

Most likely the complete lack of progress is because they are rushing to finalize all the future upgrades as well as figure out how to prevent this from happening again. They would be retarded not to take advantage of this permitting suspension and repair funding to rebuild the road better then it ever was (or at least has been in the past 100 years). Yes, its frustrating to have to ride a bus while you don't see any work progressing. (I'm not an engineer, but an architecture student. And plans usually take as long, if not longer then actual construction, no matter how "fast tracked" something is.) However the total amount of delays in the end will most likely be less, the amount of money spent drastically less, and the quality of work greater then if they make some half-assed repairs now that will have to be redone or torn out in a few years anyway.


As my father always taught me, do it once, do it right.

Again, the signals should not be an issue. Even if it took a year to hand make parts for each and every signal (how many signals are in that 10 mile stretch that might have been damaged? It can't be THAT many....and they are just regular ABS signals, no?) they could run the railroad by paper and issue form Ds. This isn't real complicated railroad we are talking about. Its a single track with passing sidings....not the NEC.

MN would really be slacking if they don't have plans on the shelf and ready to go or at least know what it would take to upgrade the railroad or make it double track, etc, ESPECIALLY with all the upgrades they have been doing over the past several years to it. I mean, I hate to compare this situation to NJT because nothing this severe happened on it, but they have plans and the hard work done on projects that will probably never see the light of day. Lets say this happened on the Atlantic City LIne (single track with sidings)...they have plans on the shelf to make that a double track railroad. They would know what would need to be done, or at least a very very good idea of what would need to be done to upgrade to double track. Even if the second track weren't able to get laid in this window, (re)build the subbed so it could handle it and put the other track down later. It should be as easy as taking the plans off the shelf and dusting them off and freshening them up a lil bit maybe, especially if permitting has been suspended.....

Do it right the first time yes, but at the same time, its never gonna be perfect, and getting something going is much better than waiting and doing it 100 percent. I think the folks shleping on the busses would agree.....

As much as we think we know, we simply don't, MNCR has enough talent working on the problem and those have much better credentials {as far as railroading} than entire forum.