P32AC-DM Dual-Mode Genesis Discussion (Empire Service)

Given that 2 P32's have cycled to Beech for repainting,it might be time to cycle the P32's to Beech for rebuilding,
or to GE at Erie Pa to keep the transit time to/from the shop down.
Both NY and Ct have cycled their P32's to GE Erie for rebuilding already.

Nasadowsk wrote:

F-line to Dudley via Park wrote:

then consider that LIRR has 23 straight diesels to replace + cushion, and would ideally like to have something with major parts commonality--if not total modularity--to their duals.

The LIRR should consider that in this day and age, there's zero reason to be operating diesels on LI, for anything other than towing dead MUs around. Or, and the one or two freights a day the NY&A runs

I think the people of Oyster Bay, Glen Cove, Port Jefferson, Smithtown, Riverhead and Bayshore would disagree with you strenuously on that. Never mind the Hamptons.

There's a lot of LIRR territory past the end of electrification at Huntington, Ronkonkoma and Babylon. If the cost of a DM is $1X and the cost of a straight diesel is $0.75X, it makes sense for them to at least consider it.

Ridgefielder wrote: I think the people of Oyster Bay, Glen Cove, Port Jefferson, Smithtown, Riverhead and Bayshore would disagree with you strenuously on that.

I grew up on the Oyster Bay line. I remember when the DM-30s were ordered. LIRR promised us service "just like an electric". That's not my words, that's the LIRR's spokeperson's words.

Well, guess what? 18 years later, we're still changing at Jamacia. Trains are still slow as hell, infrequent, noisy, smokey, and just as crappy as it was when the GP-38-2s struggled to drag a few rotting P-72/75 cars in and out of Glen Street.

Trust me, most of the area dreams of the day when the LIRR finally breaks down and puts in third rail on the line.

Port Jeff, they want it even more so - that line needed electrification 20 years ago.

For the few Hamptonites too poor to fly out and too special for Hampton Jittney, just keep 2 or 3 DM sets in reserve for the summer.

There is zero reason the LIRR should be running diesel services today. The new "diesel fleet" should be an add-on order of M-9s...

Nasadowsk wrote:

Ridgefielder wrote: I think the people of Oyster Bay, Glen Cove, Port Jefferson, Smithtown, Riverhead and Bayshore would disagree with you strenuously on that.

I grew up on the Oyster Bay line. I remember when the DM-30s were ordered. LIRR promised us service "just like an electric". That's not my words, that's the LIRR's spokeperson's words.

Well, guess what? 18 years later, we're still changing at Jamacia. Trains are still slow as hell, infrequent, noisy, smokey, and just as crappy as it was when the GP-38-2s struggled to drag a few rotting P-72/75 cars in and out of Glen Street.

Trust me, most of the area dreams of the day when the LIRR finally breaks down and puts in third rail on the line.

Port Jeff, they want it even more so - that line needed electrification 20 years ago.

For the few Hamptonites too poor to fly out and too special for Hampton Jittney, just keep 2 or 3 DM sets in reserve for the summer.

There is zero reason the LIRR should be running diesel services today. The new "diesel fleet" should be an add-on order of M-9s...

I suspect it's not a question of the LIRR not wanting to electrify Oyster Bay and Port Jeff, but a question of the LIRR not having the extra the multi-hundreds-of-millions-of-$ they need to do it.

Not getting replaced anytime soon: TimesUnion.com

Amtrak's aging fleet lacks funding from the state

When Gov. Andrew Cuomo last week told The New York Times that Penn Station was a "debacle," and that he wished the state controlled it, rail advocates may have had mixed feelings.

While derailments have caused headaches for hundreds of thousands of commuters, Amtrak passengers elsewhere in the state haven't been spared.

Top state transportation officials in the Cuomo administration failed to provide funds in this year's budget to replace the aging locomotives, even as the existing fleet is breaking down more frequently, and experts in the DOT have recommended replacement.

I hear in the Penn Trackwork thread that some trains are entering Penn in push/pull mode. Are they using the P32's for this? Here's the thread:

viewtopic.php?f=46&t=165244" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

This article confused me a bit. Is Amtrak going to purchase P32 replacements with its own money in parallel with a MTA/CDOT order, is Amtrak going to try to shake down NYS for some funding a la our favorite {redacted} trainset, or is it sloughing off ownership to NYS altogether?

The P32AC-DMs spend 90% of their time in NYS, and I recall the idea was for NYS to pay for the replacements. Perhaps Vermont can chip in for one of the two needed for the Ethan Allen, as that is the only train past ALB that usually does not get an engine change. The only long distance train that needs them is the Lake Shore Ltd, but maybe Amtrak can be convinced to buy one or two under that premise. The other named trains which use them are already established to be NYS trains: The Adirondack is NYS supported, and the Maple Leaf is just an Empire Corridor train that gets handed off to VIA at the border.

FWIW NYS is paying for the badly needed repainting on the current ones (701, 704, 707, 710 so far? Following the pattern is 713 next?). This could be a harbinger of the replacements.

As you note, they get switched out at ALB, so I doubt they're making the trip to Chicago on the LSL. AFAIK, they've never been overhauled. If some of the trains switch to GCT temporarily to alleviate stress on NYP, they could potentially lease a couple MNRR units, which have had their mid-life rebuild. Everything I read points to the unreliability of the Amtrak P32's...

Due to lack of parts even MN has no spares and is not in position to lend any units.
as for overhaul yes Amtrak has overhauled a few units inhouse.

hs3730 wrote:Perhaps Vermont can chip in for one of the two needed for the Ethan Allen, as that is the only train past ALB that usually does not get an engine change.

VTrans is indeed in with NY on this duals order for the Ethan Allen, per the old preliminary Request For Information paperwork of several years ago. IIRC, they pay in a % ownership for New York's fleet covering the Ethan Allen equipment requirements but don't get any vote in the decision-making process.

Jeff Smith wrote: I hear in the Penn Trackwork thread that some trains are entering Penn in push/pull mode. Are they using the P32's for this? Here's the thread:

viewtopic.php?f=46&t=165244" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Yes. There is a P32 on each end. They are MU-d through the train. So, that is why I amended my post to PULL-PULL in the same thread. Even if the trailing unit is dead in tow, it still doesn't not meet the definition of a push-pull train since there is a locomotive on each end.

hs3730 wrote:The P32AC-DMs spend 90% of their time in NYS, and I recall the idea was for NYS to pay for the replacements. Perhaps Vermont can chip in for one of the two needed for the Ethan Allen, as that is the only train past ALB that usually does not get an engine change. The only long distance train that needs them is the Lake Shore Ltd, but maybe Amtrak can be convinced to buy one or two under that premise. The other named trains which use them are already established to be NYS trains: The Adirondack is NYS supported, and the Maple Leaf is just an Empire Corridor train that gets handed off to VIA at the border.

Indeed but the Maple Leaf (63/64) also change engines at ALB...just as the Lake Shore Limited does. If this drags on and they need to turn more trains in the station, they could change a few more trains at ALB and free up a few more P-32s.

711 can be added to being repainted.

I suppose they only need one engine in operable condition, then it would be push-pull . Or with two working engines the likelihood of a breakdown is halved!

Chrisgr wrote:711 can be added to being repainted.

Thanks! I don't know if there's an authoritative list out there somewhere, so it's good to keep track of it here...

ThirdRail7 wrote:Indeed but the Maple Leaf (63/64) also change engines at ALB...just as the Lake Shore Limited does. If this drags on and they need to turn more trains in the station, they could change a few more trains at ALB and free up a few more P-32s

I awkwardly implied it before but everything already does an engine change in ALB, except for the Ethan Allen express and the occasional exception for operational flexibility (help a late train get back on time, or if there's a P42 shortage).
My point of mentioning the LSL though was that without dual modes it's not going to NYC. Since without a radical schedule change the LSL will always need two at the same time, two replacements should be paid for by Amtrak rather than NYS.

Is there an outright operational or capacity enhancement advantage to running the Empire push-pull instead of turning around at Sunnyside? And I don't mean a defensive reaction to Penn being FUBAR a lot of the time, but genuine advantages to proactively having that flexibility? The PRIAA single-level coach procurement will have a Metroliner replacement available for purchase to the states in a cab-coach-bag default interior configuration. VTrans will be getting a couple of them assigned to ALB to handle the EAE's Rutland-Burlington reverse move, but if New York saw enough efficiencies they could convert the state-sponsored Empire trains entirely over to P-P by portioning out their coach order accordingly trailers vs. cabs. Would have the added advantage of giving every Empire slot a minimum half-car's worth of baggage storage without needing to custom-order any regular trailers in a half-bag configuration since this cab-coach-bag config is the factory default. Extra inspection and signaling overhead, however, means they would need to have a solid ops reason for doing so. But if a change in ops philosophy were desirable, they'll have their shot at portioning out their coach order for it in a couple years.


Also...wonder if PRIAA is fueling some of Cuomo's leverage game with AMTK. Under the new state-sponsored ownership structure, ALB engine swaps are now going to be a double-dip on fleet ownership costs. Since NY was not a member state of the Charger diesel order and aren't getting any corridor straight-diesels of their own, that means they have to borrow from the national equipment pool to run the Empire-Niagra, Maple Leaf, and Adirondack...where Amtrak can gouge them accordingly. This may mean that the next duals order has expectation from AMTK that engine swaps are going to end on all but the LD Lake Shore Ltd. and that the state-owned duals will be expected to cover the entirety of the state-sponsored routes. Which makes a good degree of sense, especially with the redrawn equipment jurisdictions thrown up by the new law. But it'll require NY to pad its duals order generously with extra units because they won't be able to stretch NYP-ALB coverage by keeping the duals on the Hudson conveyor belt if AMTK has ability to bring the pain on costs for borrowing from the national straight-diesel pool. Right now PRIAA's only set up to accommodate fees for nat'l fleet shares at the NEC engine-swap equipment bases (WSH, NHV, PHI) where those routes (VA Regionals, Springfield/Vermonter, Keystone/Pennsylvanian, and Downeaster-by-proximity) have no choice but to use the national Sprinter fleet and the relatively small total number of required diesels are easiest for accounting purposes to bill following the same pay-in fee structure with the national pool. NY, being operationally self-contained on the Empire and ALB shops with its state-sponsored routes, much more closely resembles the Midwest and Caltrans pools in division of ownership labor under the new structure.

Could be that Cuomo's making an early salvo at concessions for PRIAA forcing NY to pay a higher unit cost for its order of power than any other state is required to by the law. Threat to delay the order unless the feds up their share of Penn repair costs could be part of the playbook.