NJT signal indications

It is standard Amtrak practice to use wayside distant signals in most of their 562 territory. This allows trains running under Rule 280a to approach next interlocking under signal control instead of prepared to stop.

While I can only speak for where I am familar with and qualifed on, the 562 inbetween Newark and NYC does NOT have wayside distant signals in the 562 territory.

It is true that the interlockings are close enough together that one interlockings acts like the distant to the next, that is not always the case, and a very very VERY dangerous assumption. For example. Going east on 2 track at Hudson. Cab Speed 60 is displayed in the cabs, with a Cab Speed on Hudsons Home signal on 2 track.

While it might mean that you are following a train, and it will go up eventually, and thats how far behind it you are (enough to get a CS 60/80 in the cabs and a CS on the home signal), it can also mean that Swifts home signal on 2 track is a STOP signal. No "Approach Normal" light, no wayside distant signal, nothing. You get a Cab Speed at Hudson to a Stop Signal at Swift.

In theory 562 systems require some sort of signal overlap (or marked block limits) else a train stopped right after a block boundary runs the risk of being rear ended by another train still traveling on approach. Most issues with train handling only apply to freight trains that sometimes need to know the difference between Approach and Approach Slow or Advance Approach and Approach Medium, both of which map to the same cab signal aspect. Freight lines using 562 are often engineered so those situations never arise, but passenger lines that optimize their 562 for passenger traffic have to restrict freight operations to ensure safety. Anyway, shame on you for applying the brake before you have to. The ATC on NJT and Amtrak is very conservative (passenger trains can drop from 80 to 45 for a Limited Clear in about 1500 feet in non-CSS territory) and you should stay off the brake until the last moment to avoid that nasty 2-mile approach medium crawl. Run it like PATCO, maximum acceleration, maximum brake.

"Most issues with train handling only apply to freight trains" - HAHHAHA Wow, thats funny

Not for nothing, but last I checked, a sack of potatoes or a load of jeans or even a contanter of electronics cannot complain about trainhanding. Nor can they be physically injured (well thats not true, bad trainhandling in freight can hurt items) but they aren't a PERSON. If I throttled out straight to notch 8 in a 10 car train wtih a cab car of say, I dunno a Comet 4 with an ALP46 pushing, SOMEONE (and probably more than 1 person) would go to the hospital, and I would be in deep deep deep trouble. There are two very specific types of train handling - freight and keeping the cars on teh rails, and not busting a knuckle or pulling a drawbar (among other things) and passenger train handling which is much smoother and much more precise. Not to say you don't have to be smooth and precise in freight, or that you can't bust a knuckle or pull a drawbar in pax, but its differnet.

Ive seen folks fall over and get injured because of rough passenger trainhandling. And I do my damnest to run a smooth train. And if that requires me to put on the brakes a little before, well then so be it, ill make it up elsewhere. You know, I might not konw all the technical reasons for the way the signals operate, or the various ins and outs of them, but I do know what they do, what they mean, and I know the letter of the signal rules ( especially in non-CSS) and operate accordingly. I know how they are going to react (most times) and I know what I need to do to comply with them. Thats my job, and I don't need someone saying "shame on me" for trying to run a smooth train. I know you are big on the non-CSS territory and the "slow down" that cab signals cause, especially with approach mediums or limiteds. But how about running under a Restricing or a Stop and Proceed in non-CSS? When that happens, I WISH I had cab signals, or at least short signal blocks!

Like I said before, the 562 system on Amtrak frequently changes - CS 60, CS 80, drop down to Appraoch, up to a Clear than finally a Restricting, then to whta it should be, which lets say is a CS 60 - but then it comes up to a CS 80 now because ive had to jam on the brakes so much because the damn thing kept changing and I dind't wanna get a penalty, that the other train is now further ahead of me, and the signals are getting better. Unwritten rule of thumb is to stay one below what ever the Cab signals are showing because they flip so much. CS 80? Im going 60 - CS 60? Im going 45. That is unless im say following a train that can go faster than me, or doens't make a stop at SEC. If Im following an Acela out of Newark (becaues I have been sitting there for 10 minutes) and there is NOTHING ahead of him, and only him ahead of me, Im gonna run the fastest I can, because i know the cabs aren't gonna drop, because he should be going faster adn faster and out of my way so that i get clears because the bad cab signals are only going to get better the more i go.

I still feel that wayside signals offer a level of redunancy that 562 simply cant, and we have gone over this a few times in various threads here. While still not exactly my favorite thing, a real automatic distant signal (not an Approach Normal light) would be adequate in 562 territory, esepecially if diverting up ahead. Better yet, on long stretches inbetween interlockings in 562, say every 5 miles or whatever, a wayside automatic, to make sure that you cab signals are still working as intended, and conforming.

Just my 1.5 cents

Jtgshu wrote: "Most issues with train handling only apply to freight trains" - HAHHAHA Wow, thats funny

Not for nothing, but last I checked, a sack of potatoes or a load of jeans or even a contanter of electronics cannot complain about trainhanding. Nor can they be physically injured (well thats not true, bad trainhandling in freight can hurt items) but they aren't a PERSON. If I throttled out straight to notch 8 in a 10 car train wtih a cab car of say, I dunno a Comet 4 with an ALP46 pushing, SOMEONE (and probably more than 1 person) would go to the hospital, and I would be in deep deep deep trouble. There are two very specific types of train handling - freight and keeping the cars on teh rails, and not busting a knuckle or pulling a drawbar (among other things) and passenger train handling which is much smoother and much more precise. Not to say you don't have to be smooth and precise in freight, or that you can't bust a knuckle or pull a drawbar in pax, but its differnet.

Ive seen folks fall over and get injured because of rough passenger trainhandling. And I do my damnest to run a smooth train. And if that requires me to put on the brakes a little before, well then so be it, ill make it up elsewhere. You know, I might not konw all the technical reasons for the way the signals operate, or the various ins and outs of them, but I do know what they do, what they mean, and I know the letter of the signal rules ( especially in non-CSS) and operate accordingly. I know how they are going to react (most times) and I know what I need to do to comply with them. Thats my job, and I don't need someone saying "shame on me" for trying to run a smooth train. I know you are big on the non-CSS territory and the "slow down" that cab signals cause, especially with approach mediums or limiteds. But how about running under a Restricing or a Stop and Proceed in non-CSS? When that happens, I WISH I had cab signals, or at least short signal blocks!

Like I said before, the 562 system on Amtrak frequently changes - CS 60, CS 80, drop down to Appraoch, up to a Clear than finally a Restricting, then to whta it should be, which lets say is a CS 60 - but then it comes up to a CS 80 now because ive had to jam on the brakes so much because the damn thing kept changing and I dind't wanna get a penalty, that the other train is now further ahead of me, and the signals are getting better. Unwritten rule of thumb is to stay one below what ever the Cab signals are showing because they flip so much. CS 80? Im going 60 - CS 60? Im going 45. That is unless im say following a train that can go faster than me, or doens't make a stop at SEC. If Im following an Acela out of Newark (becaues I have been sitting there for 10 minutes) and there is NOTHING ahead of him, and only him ahead of me, Im gonna run the fastest I can, because i know the cabs aren't gonna drop, because he should be going faster adn faster and out of my way so that i get clears because the bad cab signals are only going to get better the more i go.

I still feel that wayside signals offer a level of redunancy that 562 simply cant, and we have gone over this a few times in various threads here. While still not exactly my favorite thing, a real automatic distant signal (not an Approach Normal light) would be adequate in 562 territory, esepecially if diverting up ahead. Better yet, on long stretches inbetween interlockings in 562, say every 5 miles or whatever, a wayside automatic, to make sure that you cab signals are still working as intended, and conforming.

Just my 1.5 cents

Cmon Jt, what do you know? Youre just a qualified, certified engineer. How dare you question someone who has absolutely no time in the cab whatsoever!

BuddSilverliner269 wrote:JT and Sirsonic , I appreciate your insight into the 562 ABS term that NJT are giving out, but Im not really buying it(No offense )The whole meaning of rule 562 is cab signals without automatic blocks so it would really be false in calling the 562, abs territory, although I would be willing to call it ab territory,haha.

Ahh Im offended! Ha ha. So you need the hard sell? Let me pull out the big guns...

Consulting my NORAC Operating Rules, 9th Edition, in the definitions I find:
MAIN TRACK A track designated by timetable upon which train movements are authorized by ABS, DCS, or interlocking rules.
Now, since between, say Bergen and A, neither DCS nor Interlocking rules are in effect, and it certainly is a main track, what does that leave us with? Believe me Budd, I was a tough sell on this one when I first learned it, but it does make sense the more you think about it.

Sirsonic wrote:

BuddSilverliner269 wrote:JT and Sirsonic , I appreciate your insight into the 562 ABS term that NJT are giving out, but Im not really buying it(No offense )The whole meaning of rule 562 is cab signals without automatic blocks so it would really be false in calling the 562, abs territory, although I would be willing to call it ab territory,haha.

Ahh Im offended! Ha ha. So you need the hard sell? Let me pull out the big guns...

Consulting my NORAC Operating Rules, 9th Edition, in the definitions I find:
MAIN TRACK A track designated by timetable upon which train movements are authorized by ABS, DCS, or interlocking rules.
Now, since between, say Bergen and A, neither DCS nor Interlocking rules are in effect, and it certainly is a main track, what does that leave us with? Believe me Budd, I was a tough sell on this one when I first learned it, but it does make sense the more you think about it.

Hmmm actually that makes sense because A and Rea, not only do you have the 562 , but you have the interlocking rules in effect as well. Sirsonic I take back what I said.You have been redeemed.Haha

BuddSilverliner269 wrote:actually that makes sense because A and Rea, not only do you have the 562 , but you have the interlocking rules in effect as well. Sirsonic I take back what I said.You have been redeemed.Haha

Yes, but only within interlocking limits. 562 doesn't apply within an interlocking because, well, your in an interlocking. Not saying that an interlocking can not contain automatic signals (track 3 at West End on the Main Line side has one in both directions, 1X and 2X at A in NYPS, etc)

562 is always married with ABS. 562 can not exist without the other. The only thing that's different is that in 562 ABS territory, the automatic block information is received in cab only with the exceptions of home and interlocking signals. In good old fashioned ABS 261 you would have physical wayside block signals. With 562, those signals no longer exist. This is how Amtrak piles up trains on the High Line when NY is backed up. Thanks to 562, the automatic blocks are MUCH shorter and more trains are jammed into the small area they have to work with. They also benefit from not having to maintain the structure and bulbs of a bunch of extra signals.

I think you just need better dispatchers